Email subscribe to LLC blog updates:
Your email:
www.agoda.com

Recent Forum Posts

Recent Comments

Ladder Theory and Chinese Girls

梯子理论和中国女孩


Ladder TheoryJust like with any kind of human interactions, there are many attempts to create theoretical frameworks for attraction between sexes. The quality of different theories explaining attraction can be measured in two aspects:

1) How well they explain certain cases of successful (or unsuccessful) romantic interactions

2) How well they predict the outcome of interactions that are yet in progress

Recently, from one of the forums which I regularly read, I learned about a humorous, yet very interesting theory known as the “ladder theory”.

Being described in many online resources, this theory outlays the differences in how men and women perceive their potential partners, or as it puts – rank them on their attraction ladders.

And although this theory has its share of drawbacks, I was very intrigued to realize that there is one case which can serve as an excellent illustration of its principles in action. I am talking about Cheung Wai Lan whose story was described in one of the previous posts. Let me present the main postulates of the ladder theory and then show you why it is relevant to Cheung’s case.

According to this theory both men and women make a quick (and mostly unconscious) evaluation of the potential partners and calculate a score according to which these partners are rated on their attraction ladder. It is also called a good ladder.

Men make their judgment basing on woman’s looks and perceived probability to have sex with her. Meanwhile, when women look at men, their main criterion is the man’s social value (money and power) followed by attractiveness. While there is a relative scarcity of rich and powerful men who presumably can get any woman they want, most of the women will choose among those men who seem more attractive.

However, the paradox is that in order to understand what makes a man attractive – the last thing he should do is to ask women what they are looking for. Because all descriptions of nice guys who should be “serious”, “kind”, “intelligent”, “humorous” (… there are also other adjectives that you can find in my posts) have little to do with what attracts women indeed.

Ladder theorists believe that men can increase their attractiveness in women’s eyes by being unusual (or novel) and by demonstrating their lack of interest in women. This is exactly that field of “personal development” where multiple dating coaches (or as they call themselves – pick-up artists) put most of their efforts in transforming nice guys with no guts into cool dudes.

Here comes the central point of the ladder theory. While men have just one ladder on which they grade women according to how much they would want to sleep with them, women have two ladders! The first one is for men with whom they would like to sleep (the real ladder, the “good” ladder). The other one is for those nice guys who make great friends but have little chance to jump from friends-ladder to the real-ladder.

And there is no doubt that they want to jump. Cause guys (even nice ones!) have just one ladder and for that reason a guy and a girl cannot be friends. Ladder theory finds only three exceptions to this sad rule:

1. The guy is gay
2. The guy does not find the girl attractive
3. The guy already has a woman that is much higher on the ladder


Now let’s get back to Cheung Wai Lan. As you remember, he developed attraction to Ms. B – a young Chinese girl (who was an exchange student in UK). She was very friendly with him, readily accepted his courtship and even went out with him to few dates including the birthday party of Cheung’s friend. They had long and quite intimate conversations until one day (or more exactly one night which they spend in the bar) Cheung decided to make a movement but got a “slap” in his face when miss B. said that she “had no idea” and “was right busy now”. The strangest thing was that following that incident Miss B. continued to actively seek for Cheung’s company.

 

And here is the interpretation of what happened according to the ladder theory.

Cheung is indeed a nice guy and gentleman. And from the very beginning miss B. assigned him to the friends ladder. All the efforts that he put into pursuing the girl only helped him to climb higher. Balancing on the top of the friends ladder, he tried to jump from there to the real ladder but it was nothing more than the step into abyss.

There was, however, one peculiarity in miss B’s behavior. Besides going out with Cheung to dates, she used to hold his hand and cuddle him. Fathers of the ladder theory have a special name for guys who get such kind of treatment – cuddle bitches.

Cuddle bitch – a guy who never gets to sleep with a girl but gets to have intimate moments with her like cuddling, spooning, or otherwise being affectionate <…> The cuddle bitch often thinks he is on the good ladder as opposed to the real ladder. So he gets all excited about his position instead of realizing he is being completely used. So this poor tool is really setting himself up for a fall at that point.


I cannot help myself to make few speculations regarding Chinese dating culture from the point of view of the ladder theory.

 

First of all, there is a term – “ladder disparity”.

It often happens that one person is a lot higher on your ladder than you are on theirs, or vice versa <…> If the man is in the upper position the disparity is a measure of how long the woman will put up with him cheating.

Ladder disparity

Taking in account how widespread the marital infidelity in China is – it can be explained by one of two reasons: either Chinese women often marry up or their value drops drastically down once they get married.

Here comes to my mind the issue of gender imbalance and millions of Chinese guys without a chance to find brides. Seems that women can be pickier. But what will be the result? Will Chinese girls climb up the ladder or will the disparity of the average marriage increase?

And what about Chinese “leftover girls”? Ladder theory has explanation for this phenomenon as well. Let’s recall that according to it, deep inside all women are gold-diggers looking for money. But here is a catch!

What is important to know about the money/power piece is that previously it was thought of as static. Now we know that the money/power piece of attraction displays time-variance. That is, the amount of money needed to get maximal “points” in the money category varies according to the age of the woman. When a woman is younger her perspective is different as to what makes a lot of money. As she gets older the amount of money necessary for full points increases.

Wow! So, it seems that once Chinese girls miss the optimal age at which they should marry, not only the growing number of wrinkles reduces their market value but they foolishly insist on targeting less and less attainable men.

You know what is the best thing about the ladder theory? It is that its authors have a sense of humor. So, if you want to get ranked on my friends ladder, you can become my friend on Facebook ;-)

Crystal Tao

Incoming search terms:

  • guys and girls can\t be friends
  • guys and girls can\t be friends quotes
  • girls bonds and boys lan only girls and boys
  • ladder Chinese
  • why guys and girls can\t be friends
  • can a guy and a girl be friends
  • guys and girls cant be friends
  • guys and girls cant be friends quotes

If you liked this article, consider to subscribe to new LoveLoveChina posts by RSS. You can also follow me on Twitter and Facebook.

And most important! I want to invite you to join LoveLoveChina forums where you can read posts on different topics, leave replies and post your own threads.

  • ziccawei

    Cuddle bitch….

    Hahhaha….

    :mrgreen:

  • ziccawei

    Ladder theory – a theory devised in the west by western people (not even academics or sociology experts – pick up ‘artists’ – probably American) and then trying to apply this blanket theory to ALL women (and men) from ALL cultures and countries.

    Hmmmm, yeah, that’ll work.

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      In my opinion, the weakest point of this theory is that it is very “wise” in hindsight, but has little success in predicting the outcome of some specific relationship.

      Even on the site of “ladder theory” you can see that no matter what kind of exception you find – they will either claim that it doesn’t prove anything or just put it on the list of “known exceptions”.

      And as a result, if you take a guy A and girl B – no matter what the outcome of their relationship is – it will be “natural” from the point of view of ladder theorists.

  • Smithcraft

    I take it you haven’t seen “When Harry Met Sally” have you?

  • ziccawei

    Ladder Theory just reeks of American dating culture to me. That whole concept of ‘game’ and all that bullshit. It’s just that – bullshit.
    Fits in perfectly with the American idea of ‘How-To-Live-My-Life-As-Dictated-By-Some-Other-Guy’ and all those self help books.
    Dating – or relationships between people – cannot be organised and structured on a bar chart or rationalised.
    The rule is there are no rules.

  • Teacher in China

    I stopped reading that ladder theory website after the third page – the misogyny was oozing out of the monitor… It reeked of someone who has been dumped one too many times and is still really bitter about it.

  • Jay K.

    Wow, I am quite surprised everyone is down playing this new thread. I personally thought it was one of the greatest pieces written yet by you Crystal.

    As a person who is about to bite the dust next year, my days of dating have pretty much been nullified. Do I consider it a good thing or bad thing; in all honesty any red blooded guy would say it is both (please dont play up the knight in white shining armor crap, you’ve got a dick and would stick it in any hole if you had the chance)

    Crystal your idea of its weakest point I do 2nd, after all if this were to be used in my relationship with my fiancee, it would not make sense since I am not rich and I am too overweight in China now to have gotten my fiancee (according to Russell Peters “I do not have a schlong, I have more of a schlort”). To be more specific about it, my fiancee is successful went to a top 1% university in China graduating with her receiving the titles of summa cum laude and magna cum laude from undergraduate to graduate studies, has a good job and I am sure in a few years will be the bread winner between the two of us (and she gets to boss others puny lives in the office a Wu Zi Tian in the making…)

    I am nowhere close to this status as what she has, and I am pretty damn lucky to have her (some of you probably are thinking, this girl must be a nerd leftover…she is from Dalian, Dalian women are known for being tall and sexy so I don’t need to prove anything else). So this concept of ladder theory cannot apply to our relationship
    BUT…
    I can see how this theory could be used from an outsider’s perspective (mostly our circle of friends, colleagues, as well as relatives on her side, and other misc people we know). She often gets irritated when people would say behind her back “oh she is only dating him because he is a foreigner (could this be a value point in the ladder theory?)”…OR…”she is only dating him so she can leave China someday and get citizenship status to his country or very least a green card (I will not release my national identity, only for the fact that America F Yeah Coming again to save the Motha F’in Day Ya!)”…OR…”you know his salary is high especially for chinese standards (it’s not, in fact as I am writing this I am preparing to meet with accounting to see if they made mistakes on my salary and ask my boss why I get such a damn low pay yet he never comes to work except to give a speech and then doesnt show up until next month…seriously福二代去你妈!)… So from an outsider’s perspective I could see why ladder theory here would I guess, although I disagreee
    And yes guys I am lucky, damn lucky to have her. I won the lottery when I got her.

    I have rambled so much and I just came back bitching with accounting that I forgot my train of thought. It was something about supporting ladder theory yet making a counter against it in my post.

    Yes my train of thought, So like any theory it does have its weaknesses (hell I’m a subscriber to various theories in the political science field from hegemon theory, to game theory to neo con agendas should be used as a form of foreign policy in my country<—this is not really a theory just my thought…but seriously glen beck is a douchebag and so is rush limbaugh, but bill o'reilly you are a good man)

    So why do I still support the idea of ladder theory…maybe it's because I have been in China too loong and asked enough direct questions to women and men to have a predictable answer as to what they will say and I seriously would like to say most women in modern society and especially if they come from a big and modern city (i.e. shanghai, beijing, hong kong, taipei, NY,etc) all have one thing in mind money and guys have one thing in mind, sex with hot girls and ladder theory works out the formula well.

    Let me give you an example, and yes I am changing the names of the people involved, this was during a current conversation between a colleague and one of my good friends. that being me and a colleague on msn since I am too lazy to get out of my desk to talk to her and vice versa or its after office hours

    10:51:11 PM Jay: business deals do not work this way
    10:51:36 PM Jay: when a person offers you a contract u do not ask what if i dont sign the contract and what if i sign the contract u sign first then more things come to you
    10:52:55 PM Blossom: ok,can you give me his msn?
    10:53:07 PM Jay: u will have to ask him then next time u see him
    10:53:49 PM Blossom: i don't think so
    10:54:09 PM Blossom: you don't tell me and don't give me his msn
    10:54:43 PM Blossom: it's unfair
    10:55:37 PM Jay: u should get it form him by asking him
    10:56:53 PM Blossom: i just know now
    10:58:03 PM Blossom: just want to know now
    10:58:18 PM Jay: well next time u see him u can ask him directly for his msn and phone number
    10:58:19 PM Jay: so weird
    10:58:39 PM Jay: u want his information now, but before u did not want. u want now because i told u he is a company boss and he has many houses?
    11:00:03 PM Blossom: actuality,my friends also have company
    11:02:03 PM Jay: because before i try to introduce u to him, but u were not interested before on tuesday
    11:04:14 PM Blossom: actuality i have said"nice to meet you",maybe you and him didn't heard that
    11:05:09 PM Jay: why say to me u shouldve said to him
    11:06:02 PM Blossom: i said to him, but he can't hear that
    11:06:12 PM Jay: well u and him took the same train back to home
    11:06:37 PM Blossom: no
    11:07:29 PM Blossom: just two sentences
    11:09:25 PM Blossom: he looked so tired and he was on the line
    11:11:00 PM Jay: because he and i played for 2 hours tennis
    11:11:03 PM Jay: and i made him run a lot
    11:11:12 PM Jay: u shouldve have talked to him
    11:11:15 PM Jay: so sad maybe u miss ur chance
    11:11:39 PM Blossom: you don't give me his msn

    another day

    9:21:13 AM Blossom: i like friday
    9:21:23 AM Jay: i dont
    9:21:30 AM Jay: because on friday i work 12 hours non stop
    9:21:34 AM Jay: right now i am in (someplace)
    9:21:46 AM Jay: then after i will go to another company office to meet sales in (some other place)
    9:21:55 AM Jay: then from 5 to 8pm i go again to (someplace)
    9:21:56 AM Jay: …
    9:22:05 AM Blossom: busy bee
    9:22:15 AM Jay: i need to make money
    9:27:46 AM Jay: girls are expensive
    9:28:08 AM Blossom: especially bj girls
    9:28:10 AM Blossom: haha
    9:28:17 AM Jay: yes especially bj girls
    9:28:20 AM Jay: thats why i never date one
    9:29:13 AM Blossom: most men think like that
    9:29:28 AM Jay: and i especially never date girls form shanghai
    9:29:34 AM Jay: then bj girls
    9:30:44 AM Blossom: you are right
    9:31:26 AM Jay: so i am right about girls from bj你说的意思吗?
    9:33:43 AM Blossom: no.i mean you never date with bj girls is a good choose
    9:33:52 AM Jay: why a good choice
    9:33:53 AM Jay: ?
    9:34:47 AM Blossom: you said bj girls are expensive
    9:35:07 AM Jay: so you also think bj girls are expensive for dating?
    9:39:10 AM Blossom: Some people are like that
    9:39:25 AM Jay: and what do u think about yourself
    9:39:26 AM Jay: ?
    9:41:01 AM Blossom: I admit i like money
    9:41:42 AM Jay: so it does not matter if the guy u date is very rich or just a middle class person(i mean by middle class as he can earn over 10,000rmb/month) for u to date him?
    9:42:21 AM Blossom: yes, must make money for home in bj and for things needed to have face for friends and family in bj.

    Yes it is a dick move on my part to post this, but I needed some proof so you guys out there wont say "you know nothing and you are jsut pulling things out of your hat" well I've been in bj enough years to hear those comments like above said many times by colleagues or former colleagues or friends I have known and can confide in me some parts. it could have been a direct or indirect observation.

    I am not done with this and I will be writing more on this ladder theory and game theory isz up next on this idea of dating

    I dont know how much I can make from said above statement

  • http://www.shangahioutlandish.com dej

    “So, if you want to get ranked on my friends ladder, you can become my friend on Facebook”

    Crystal what about if we are looking to get ranked on the other ladder. I can’t find the link for that ;-)

    I have to say that I subscribe to the basic principles which is that girls have to ladders and guys have one and it’s pretty hard for guys on girl’s friendship ladder to mover across the divide. The bit about what girls and guys use to decide how attractive opposite sex is flexible/changeable but the fact is this, girls can have very close friendships with guys and see nothing in it. I don’t think it works that same for guys. They’ll always be considering more.

  • ziccawei

    I think ladder theory is bullshit in China. I think many, many Chinese guys will have Chinese girls as just friends and vice versa – more so than the west.
    It would appear that both Chinese guys and girls have two ladders. This is a cultural difference which the ‘dudes’ from So-Cal who invented ladder theory inbetween breaking some waves didn’t take into consideration.

    • http://www.shangahioutlandish.com dej

      Come on even western, Inuit, and African pygmy guys can all have just friends who are female. The point is how deep that friendship goes.
      When a guy is at a point where there’s a girl who he feel comfortable to call up just for a chat, or confide his issues in (and us guess aren’t supposed to be so good at this), be touchy with in anyway I think most guys will find it hard to maintain this at just purely platonic whereas I maintain that women can do this more easily. Maybe it’s because it’s stuff they do with each other anyway.

      Some quotes from http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200109/can-men-and-women-be-friends. (The article actually supports that male-female relationships are possible but difficult).

      CHALLENGE #1

      Defining the Relationship: Friends or Lovers?

      Platonic love does exist, O’Meara asserted, and a study of 20 pairs of friends published in the Journal of Social and Personal Relationships lends credence to the notion. In it, Heidi Reeder, at Boise State University, confirmed that “friendship attraction” or a connection devoid of lust, is a bona fide type of bond that people experience. Distinguishing between romantic, sexual and friendly feelings, however, can be exceedingly difficult.

      “People don’t know what feelings are appropriate toward the opposite sex, unless they’re what our culture defines as appropriate,” said O’Meara. “You know you love someone and enjoy them as a person, but not enough to date or marry them. What does this mean?”

      CHALLENGE #2

      Overcoming Attraction: Let’s Talk About Sex

      The reality that sexual attraction could suddenly enter the equation of a cross-sex friendship uninvited is always lurking in the background. A simple, platonic hug could instantaneously take on a more amorous meaning. “You’re trying to do a friend-friend thing,” said O’Meara, “but the male-female parts of you get in the way.” Unwelcome or not, the attraction is difficult to ignore.

      In a study published in the Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, Sapadin asked more than 150 professional men and women what they liked and disliked about their cross-sex friendships. Topping women’s list of dislikes: sexual tension. Men, on the other hand, more frequently replied that sexual attraction was a prime reason for initiating a friendship, and that it could even deepen a friendship. Either way, 62 percent of all subjects reported that sexual tension was present in their cross-sex friendships.

      • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

        So the bottom line is that there is always sexual tension present, and that women often see it as a problem and wish they could be just friends.

  • Jay K.

    Dej,

    you apaprently have never seen the movie “When harry met Sally”. guys and girls can never be friends, it will either lead to cold war relations or someone is going to getting a better close up of a female clam.

    and yes i do use the movie when harry and sally for dates, it gets girls pondering many questions as i do my quagmire giggidy play on

    • http://originalmadman.blogspot.com/ Chris

      I gotta disagree with you there brother.

      You can’t really use a movie to substantiate your theory. It’s a movie, with a script wrote deliberately to invoke argument and thought etc. It’s there to feed stereotypes, not to dispel them.

      You can certainly be friends with women, if you want to have them as friends. To say that you can’t be friends with women, you are literally cutting yourself off from half of the world. Seems kinda silly to assume that sort of stance.

      • ziccawei

        Yes, really. Who in their right mind uses Hollywood mainstream movies to support an argument?

        I met this dumb English girl, a born again buddhist (the worst kind of born again), who used the movie The Matrix as a model in her support of buddhist theory. I laughed so hard I re-arranged all my chakras.

        • Jay K.

          chris and aunt jamima(sorry zacciwei or something is hard to pronounce but it does rhyme with aunt jamima..im missing syrup right now on pancakes)

          since we are on the internet, no form of feelings can be put into words, henceforth my tones in tht post of when harry meet sally was purely in the sarcastic form, while still playfully insulting the person above me who i commented on*

          is it who or whom, the answer lies in “The Office” Season 4

          • http://originalmadman.blogspot.com/ Chris

            Hahahaha. Text do indeed convey sarcasm very poorly. I suppose that’s why emoticon were invented in the first place, perhaps?

          • Louisa

            @Jay: I understood and appreciated your sarcasm. The Quagmire giddidy gave it away.

      • haha no

        chris >You can certainly be friends with women, if you want to have them as friends. To say that you can’t be friends with women, you are literally cutting yourself off from half of the world. Seems kinda silly to assume that sort of stance.

        Not forgetting the ladder thingy does say this
        1. The guy is gay
        2. The guy does not find the girl attractive
        3. The guy already has a woman that is much higher on the ladder

        look at number 3, if you have a fit wife then yes, you dont mind having female friends, if you have no girl friend or wife, and are alone, then every women is a possible g/f.

        +ziccawei > from previous posts saying chinese men are different.
        your right, iv seen some chinese friends completely torn apart, why?
        because their girl friend dumped them, i felt so sorry for them, until the end of the night when they say the need to get home before the wife calls……..
        rrrriiiigggghhhhtttt,,,, you have a wife and a few girlfriends and your upset to the point of tears about a g/f leaving you???
        about 80% of men seem to have more than one sexual partner (at a time), in the west that is around 20-30%.

  • GL

    First of all, I wouldn’t call this ladder thing a ‘theory’, as the guy who created it is not a social scientist and I’m sure he hasn’t published it or even discussed in any scientific setting.

    That aside, his ideas don’t seem completely nonsensical, but they oversimplify human nature and relationships to such a degree that they can no longer have any credibility or predictive power. Perhaps in SAT analogy sense this “theory” is to human relationships what simple linear economic models are to world’s economy, and we all know how the latter worked out recently :cool:

    Finally, concerning one vs. two (or multiple) ladders and also a relative importance of looks vs. money vs. intelligence, perhaps that depends on the influence of testosterone and generally one’s ability to exert behavioural control based on higher-order brain regions. :smile:

  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    By the way, ladder theory makes an interesting statement:

    A woman has two ladders, but the second one is the ‘guys I would have sex with’ ladder, NOT the ‘relationship ladder.’

    Now, let’s think about it in evolutionary terms. In order to reproduce female must go through 9 months of pregnancy and also take care of the growing baby. Male meanwhile can continue mating with more and more females.

    So, the cost of mistake for females (in choosing the wrong partner) is very high! What would be female’s best strategy to ensure the quality offspring with high survival chances?

    It would be to mate with the male of the best quality (who almost for sure will afterwards mate with many other females). And – on another hand – find some other male which will be ready to take care of the offspring.

    So, if I understand it correctly, in the terms of the ladder theory – men on “good” ladder are for sex, men on “friends” ladder are for marriage.

    • http://originalmadman.blogspot.com/ Chris

      I’m going to play the devil’s advocate here again.

      Evolution is a poor way to explain the mating and social theory of man kind. While most evolutionary biologists tend to explain why we do things the way we do like you said, Crystal, let’s look at things from a different perspective.

      Women do indeed need to invest lots of time and energy to rear a child. But, what better way to provide for the child then to sleep with as many men as possible, thus drawing on the resources of all these men, who think they may have a chance to be the father. In fact, since it’s women who have control over their uterus, men should fight so that she may remain monogamous to ensure his sperm are most likely the one to father a child.

      So, it works both ways. While I don’t have a better answer to explain why we do things the way we do, evolutionary biology certainly don’t seem to be the right one.

      • GL

        There is nothing wrong with evolution, but here we have to consider that (fortunately) we are living in a monogamous society (i.e. not that of bonobos or ‘brave new world’-like), so extra-marital affairs and other kinds of cheating carry a heavy social & emotional cost. Humans are jealous, and above all, no man is normally happy to raise other’s kid, especially unknowingly so.

        I would reiterate that multiple ‘ladders’ seem to be like one’s ability to distinguish different types of relationships rather that put everything on the ‘hormonal’ side (in which females obviously do better than males, and Asians probably do better than Westerners…)

      • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

        In fact, since it’s women who have control over their uterus, men should fight so that she may remain monogamous to ensure his sperm are most likely the one to father a child.

        Exactly! And isn’t it the reason why people are forgiving of promiscuous men and unforgiving to promiscuous women?

        At least until recent discoveries of DNA only woman could know for 100% that the baby is hers. And men had to use the social pressure to ensure that their women are monogamous.

    • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

      Here’s an interesting article by a professor who’s written a book on monogamy:

      http://www.trinity.edu/rnadeau/fys/barash%20on%20monogamy.htm

      the article’s punchline: “There is no question about monogamy’s being natural. It isn’t. But at the same time, there is no reason to conclude that adultery is unavoidable, or that it is good. “Smallpox is natural,” wrote Ogden Nash. “Vaccine ain’t.” Animals, most likely, can’t help “doing what comes naturally.” But humans can. A strong case can even be made that we are never so human as when we behave contrary to our natural inclinations, those most in tune with our biological impulses.”

      For me — not for a moment denying the occasional sexually-aroused impulse — I have always been a one-woman man. The deep intimacy (beyond sexuality) that results borders on the sacred. Alas, not all of the women I’ve chosen in my life shared this commitment. ;-)

      • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

        Thanks for the link.

        Infants have their infancy. And adults? Adultery.

        :lol:

        I remember reading somewhere about Konrad Lorentz studies of geese behavior. He claimed that they are a good example of monogamous behavior and fidelity.

        Later he observed that a lot of geese actually “break” their fidelity. He was very disappointed. To what assistant of Lorentz said – “Come on! Don’t be so harsh to them. They are also human”

        • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

          It’s a fascinating topic, isn’t it? We seem hard-wired both for seriously pairing up and for exploring sexual relationships outside of that pairing. I guess we’re “almost monogamous”… :lol:

          That’s why I think that in the end a long-term monogamous relationship is a choice; pairing up doesn’t suddenly shut down that part of us that finds people attractive. It’s not against our nature to want to be monogamous nor is it against our nature to want to stray; our brains (also part of our nature) allow us to follow one inclination and not the other if we decide that having that one relationship is worth it. It does seem to be against our nature to put up with straying from our partner! :cool:

  • Jay K.

    i’m all about promiscuous women and the idea of promiscuoutiy itself, i wish times had gone back tot he 60s where free love was rampant, i jsut dont want the side effects of kids and STDs

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEDRUCAUDFAMSHTDQJAFNYK5I4 LLLLL

      Ever heard of condoms?

  • Peter Phelps

    I think there is a lot to be had from this ladder theory. Of course it also dictates the same BS I’ve read in many other how-to attract ladies books. How come we have to be jerks to do that? Why do we need to try to be something we are not in order to capture attention? Those of us who are really nice guys, listen to our parents, follow the rules and are basically squares (Huey Lewis said it best, “It’s hip to be square.”) usually are not after the attention. We’re seen as boring because we don’t go to the bars, the clubs or other “exciting” venues. We just seem to get stuck on that “friend” ladder all of the time. I do not play games when it comes to this and would feel wrong even trying to.

    I think sometimes the lady is more afraid to loose us as a friend by letting us move to the other ladder. They think it will ruin everything. Sadly, I find that after a while I will pull away from them entirely because I feel I am wasting my time with them. There is also the factor that once we do find someone on that other ladder they can become jealous of those on the friendship ladder. It is not a new occurance that once someone is married they kind of no longer are allowed to see their old friends. This is mostly dependent on the partner’s sense of security with themselves and the relationship. More often than not I have noticed a sharp decline in friends being able to hang out after they were married and started a family.

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      More often than not I have noticed a sharp decline in friends being able to hang out after they were married and started a family.

      I think it’s mostly correct regarding the single friends. On the other hand, couples usually make good friends between themselves.

      • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

        Yep, friendships change throughout life, and I’d say getting married and starting a family would be a very good reason to change how you spend your off-work time; that and the obvious fact that this new relationship (multiple ones with family) is simply more important than relationships with friends, let’s face it.

        • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

          oops — sorry for the double post, but I just thought how much this turning toward the loved one and away from friends is part of the biological drive mechanism we’ve been discussing: the two paired adults turn toward each other to solidify their relationship and to build a nest within which they will hold and nurture offspring. Still wanting friendships outside of the relationship, they will, as Crystal suggests, look for friends doing the same thing, and will move away from previous (single) friends, ESPECIALLY if that group includes members of the opposite sex who might be threatening to the new family.

  • ziccawei

    All around the world, people seem to ‘lose’ friends after they get married. People change with the advent of family life, commitment and babies, I guess.
    But in Chinese culture it seems like a ‘rule’ that you stop any further contact with previous friends after being married.

  • Bored in Melbourne

    I am not at all comfortable with the need to cut of friends.

    In my previous marriage I slowly drifted and found that at divorce my best mates lived far away and I was cast off alone as most of the guys I knew well and where around me had been the partners of her friends, thus they are not allowed to be my friend anymore (not really men at all).

    So I have rebuilt my social group and it is important to me that they are part of my life. In fact I realise that we place too much pressure on a relationship by expecting to get everything from 1 person when experience should show us that rounded fulfilment should include close contact with a range of people. I have noticed a degree of insecurity that although common with Chinese girls is not healthy and should be discouraged

    • http://originalmadman.blogspot.com/ Chris

      Cannot agree with you more.

      My first serious relationship, it was the same way. Found out the hard way that once it was over, I had not cultivated other relationships besides with her. Since then, I’ve tried to maintain contact with friends in my relationships, and encourage my significant other to do the same.

  • gaozhanshi

    Hello all, and Crystal especially,

    First of all, this is really quite thoughtful- right on for posting this. Props to all the thoughtful people who have posted. Everyone else can go walk off a cliff, because you’re wasting time and breath.

    My comment is this.. I have just come to China to live and work. I’ve found making friends incredibly easy, which has been nice, however, quite boring. I like having friends, and having a few close, core friends, men and women is very important to me. Beyond that, I am relatively uninterested in friendship because I am a highly active, and sexual person. I seek stimulation, excitement, and intimacy, so getting listed on a friend’s ladder and making a new friend beyond my core, matters little to me, with three exceptions:
    1) either my new friend becomes a valuable professional connection, in which case I see that person as a part of my professional network
    2) that person becomes a connection to someone or something else important to me, culturally, artistically, intellectually or spiritually
    3) or that person introduces me to a friend of hers, (usually, since making friends with women in China has proven very easy) who I could date romantically.

    Yes, I’ll put it simply for you. I a man, proud of it. This is who I am and there is nothing at all wrong with this. Sexual tension is fun and should be followed, and explored, where appropriate and mutually consenting. Friendship with women is possible and has value, however it is not my primary interest. I have two ladders, so to speak, but one is definitely relevant, and the other, only somewhat important.

    Crystal- this is an interesting subject. Maybe you could shed some light on how men can grab that first rung of the ladder that I (and most men) are interested in climbing.

    I have been on kind of a campaign to find a gf since I arrived here. So far, a lot of little lessons, several friends and no real success as of yet. But I will persist, and sharpen my game ;)

    To all you haters- the cliff is over there…. and it’s waiting for you, so stop wasting space and time and jump

  • ziccawei

    Haters? Is your name Ffffweerff?