Hrmm.. Interesting thought. Superheros, uh, I'm not sure about that. Maybe it's just the word. But personally living in China is kind of a breath of fresh air, not literally I suppose, but from the constraints of my home culture.

To elaborate on this. Back in America I would say that there are social constructs that can be tiring all the time. Not that they are bad. Opening the door for people only to have no one open the door for you. Not being able to spit. Having to wait for the waiter or waitress to come over and it takes forever. Not being able to yell at anyone. I'm sure there are more but you must excuse me as to I can't think of many right at this moment.

But coming to China you don't have to, or there isn't any pressure, to care about anyone else. Ok, so you may read that as who cares about anyone but me. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that sometimes it gets tiring to do some of those thing all the time. All the time. And if you don't you are labeled a selfish person and so on and so forth. Here, well, your normal. I don't have to hold the elevator when I just want to get home. I don't have to hold the door for strangers. I do these things. But sometimes if I don't it's no big deal. I want to order food I don't have to wait forever for the waitress to come over. I can just yell and tell her to get her -beep- over here because I'm hungry. Which I don't really do but I could without having the entire place stop and look at me thinking I am an a**hole.

Then there are the girl subjects we could go on and on about. I feel that here a man is a man. Much like the 1960s in America were. I'm not for keeping women down or anything like that. But I always felt it hard in America to date. I am a nice guy. That is a problem in America from my perspective. Yes you can call counter argue with oh well you want to keep women down don't you. No I don't. But I've seen more games played with men than I care to. I suppose that it can happen everywhere. But here in China I feel like if a girl likes you she will show you. It's pretty obvious. Conversely in the States there are all these rules. Sex in the City -beep-. Don't call him for two days, don't do this, do this, get him to do this, etc. Men have to give in and if they act like men then they are putting women down.

I don't know. Maybe I am thinking wrong about this. And this isn't to say that the moment that I stepped off the plane I was a barbarian. I'm not. It's just a bit refreshing that's all. I'm still the same person and will not change into some kind of women hitting, spitting, mad man.

I bet that if I lived in a European country I probably would say the same thing about women. But I've never been there, so I shouldn't comment too much. It seems to me that women there are different from American women as well.

@Pudding : Well I'm French, it's exactly the same problem you describe in America. I totally second your views.

Elijah said:

For example: I agree that men are no longer allowed to really be men in most "western" countries due to the over-bearing feminization of how children are brought up. It's in the education system, in the media, everywhere.

 

You can see it when people think it's cute or funny when you have female on male violence or when every single couple has retarded male who's only interested in sex and a clever, kind, gentle female who loves him anyways and takes care of everything. Then there's the double-standard of chivalry, if a man opens the door or helps a woman in any way he's patronizing her, but if he doesn't pay for dinner he's "not a giver". So yeah, I want to be me and not whatever the current whims of the feminist movement think I should be. (By the way, I can't stand people who claim to be feminists and say they only care about equality, because it's nonsense. If you wanted equality why would you create sides and then pick one? Be a humanist or in my case an "animalist" – equality for all animal life).

 

On the other hand, I don't agree with Pudding's conclusions. For example, I don't agree that shouting at a waiter or waitress is an ok thing to do unless in an extreme situation. I'll be direct and tell them the problem and expect them to fix it, simple. I also strongly disagree with drinking on the job, not only is it in poor taste, it also promotes other vices as well as sloppy work. A business is a professional environment, you should keep your personal habits at home where they belong.

 

Dude, excellent point. I've been talking about that for years and all i get off the internet is usually "sexist" or "ah ah ah dude u need to grow up". Western society has created an impossible to reach double standard for men : they should both "be the man", mature, viril, taking decisions and responsibility, but also be kind sensitive, do the chores and be a "giver" and a "listener".

That's why we often see chinese men as being "supergay". I mean i sure hate seeing a guy holding a girls bag in the street, and i believe that MANy girls have no idea their husband is -beep-, but more often than not, the guys don't have these standards and ideals of what a man should do : they just do what they do and that's it, like it or not.

About education being useless, i have to say it's partly true. Unfortunately everybody seems to hav a masters degree and it doesn't really seem to help you get a job, and for companies doesn't really mean anything at all,  so ultimately if you want things to work, you have to find your own way and make it happen. I studied and completely failed at finding a "good job", but after year of struggling i finally got something even better : a job i really like.

This is a interesting topic. I honestly think about this all the time. A lot of guys buy into this, believing they are so great. But to be honest who could blame them? They come to a society where nobody knows them. So they have a clean slate. And dating wise..a lot of men find it to be paradise. You can either A) go clubbing or any kind of social event and meet attractive women who want you because you are a foreigner and sleep with them at your will. B) Be nice  and be a gentlemen to a girl and actually have them appreciate it. Something a lot of western women take as weakness. For those guys teaching english, people always want something from you. Because you have a skill that they want. You stick out and may even get special priviledged treatment. To a lot of people you are special, you feel special, and being an expat your life can be quite interesting. And this is just for guys that aren't even decent looking!

It's quite addictive to have this kind of lifestyle. You've become confident. In your home country maybe you couldn't get the hottest girls but you can do it in China, Japan, Korea..etc..  You buy into it. You think about normalities you faced in you western countries. The everyday life of being just a face in a crowd and damn near having to save a woman from a burning building to get her attention. You think about this and you shutter.  You can never go back to that. You are putting on a show. You know it. These people don't know you. But it's alright. It's not real..but then again..it's very real.  I think this is how it is for a lot of foreigners. I think this is their mindset.

But let me say this. I no longer live in Asia and to be honest I don't think living their long term would be a good idea for me. Yeah it's great to feel like you are important and yes being a foreign teacher you can make a difference in people lives. But I can only speak english, and i don't work in sales or finance. So the idea of teaching english for the rest of my life makes me depressed. Also, thinking about some of the problems I've heard about when foreigners marry and stay abroad. Sometimes i feel i should take just take my chances in the west. I know it depends on the woman. But I would hate to marry and have my wife behave like the "typical' asian wife. Demanding..no intimacy…no interest in romance..no communication..no problem with me going to snacks or ktv joints because she doesn't really care as long as I give money to the family…just have me work and bring her my paycheck. Of course things aren't always like that. And of course things can be really bad in a western marriage or relationship. But do think a western woman will be more open to direct communication if there are problems.

Pudding said:

For one, I personally don't want my children going to a Chinese school. Nor will I ever be able to afford a private school. Those bad boys are like 20,000USD a year. So returning to the US is probably going to happen. Maybe in 5-10 years. But who knows. Nothing really ever goes to plan anyway. So if I ever marry a Chinese girl she has to be willing to go to the States. Is that selfish, well, who knows. That's a whole other forum post.

That's another thing I thought I about. I work for the federal government. I hate my job and where I live. But I know that if I can stick this out or use it as a stepping stone, I won't be struggling in the long run. Living in Asia, I would be happy now but I don't think so in the long run. For the same reasons you said. I don't want me and my wife to scrape by just to put our kids in school. Also, if i fall in love with a woman from Asia there might be other problems about where we are going to live. I would be afraid of staying there forever with her strong sense of dutie to take care of her family or coming to america and having her think she has more options and leaves me.

Uh, well, not all "typical Asian wives" are like what you mentioned. In fact I know a few and they are nothing like that. And I've had all those things in my Western girlfriends. So I don't know if it's fair to say that Asian girls are like that. Some are, yes, some are not, also yes. No I am not trying to side with Asians, but with 7 billion people in the world it's hard to peg anyone down.

Of course I didn't mean all asian women are that way. I was just going by how some may model themselves in marriage. There are a lot of marriages that are like business transactions. And i was thinking how women would conduct themselves that way in marriage as seeing that''s how their mother was in her marriage. Yes, there are a lot of western women who exhibit these traits. But in my experience you can get some semblance of this before you take the big plunge. I think a lot of asian girls have a better poker face.

Oh, and you don't have to teach English to find people that want something from you. I probably come off as an a**hat because I never talk to anyone. 9 times out of 10 it's some Chinese person that wants something. It's usually English. I've blown off tons of girls and given up the chance to do what I may with them because I don't want to be with someone that only wants English. However there are girls out there that just say that to pretend to be a good girl. So it gets hard to distinguish between really just wanting to practice English and I want to tell people we practice English but it's an excuse to get to know you.

 Exactly my experience. But I said english teacher because I honestly didn't know anybody who did anything else. I think every foreign friend I had was an english teacher. I was also leery of girls who hung out with a lot of foreigners. Nine time out of time, they were banging 1 or 2 or 3 of them.

A lot of guys buy into this, believing they are so great. But to be honest who could blame them?

I kinda take offense to this. Kinda. I mean. So I assume that you mean since girls like the foreign guys and swoon all over them that the guys buy into being great. I would counter that, being great and believing that someone else is great is a matter of perspective. From a western girls view I may be average, not so great. Perhaps to a Cali girl I am better or maybe even great. She may even swoon over me. So why is it that when a foreigner comes to China, an Asian girl thinks he is great, which makes him think he is great, why is that a crime? Or something to look down on. I will admit that he may not be great in our eyes. But who are we to say. Sure I've judged people. Should I, probably not. I'm sure my grandmother would love to rip me a new one for doing so.

 Why did you take offense? You pretty much explained well what i meant. You even explained in a broader term. People sometimes like what's different. They like it, so they make it seem better.

I guess from my background, experiences and perspective Asian women appeal to me more than their Western counterparts. This doesn't mean that there is not a girl in America that is just like a Chinese girl but is a white, American women. It means that I have yet to meet one.

 Actually…. I've had more positive experiences with asian women. I also have yet to meet a western girl like asian women I've shown interest in. But I believe they are out there. I'm not opposed to dating Asian women in america either. I am starting to find that my yellow fever is waning sometimes. Which I think is letting me be more open to all kinds of women. But living in Asia again and then finding love, i think will just complicate things. And relationships are already complicated enough. Not to say it can't be done. But i take it that most of you guys here speak the native language and also you are much more settled in your career fields. Two things i'm not.

Dating a girl in China is like dating an actual women. Dating a girl in America is like dating another man with -beep- and or a -beep- (from my past encounters anyway). I know which one I want to pick.

Well you are right on that front. Definately a lot of western women no longer see the value of romance or courtship. You just have sex with someone and after making out with them a few times and sleeping with them for a few weeks, you decided to THEN START DATING. The relationship doesn't really have a leg to stand on. It's like trying to watch a good movie but you've already seen how it ended but trying to watch it from the beginning and pretending you don't know how it ends. But also, let's not get it twisted. A lot of asian girls sleep around a lot too. Asian society in general makes people less vocal about their sexcapades. That's the main difference. Also, where as western girls you have to usually bring them alcohol or just take to them crazy to sleep with them. There you just have to buy a designer purse. Of course i'm generalizing.

Pudding it's always a pleasure to have your input. It suprises how much we think alike.

It's always pleasant to be able to have a conversation without someone going off on some rant and shoving you under the bus. Yelling and then resorting to name calling. So thank you for that.

Yeah, I do think about the future quite a bit. I will return to the States in the future. Like I said mostly because of the education thing. Unless I found a different job where my salary was increased enough to sustain my children going to an international school. I have also though about maybe elementary here and then middle, high, and college in the States. That way they have learned a good amount of Chinese and I can teach them English.

Anyway that's a long way off.

As far as the American women vs Chinese women debate. I don't want to start one. They both are what they are. Pertaining to what you wrote, yes Chinese women can be -beep- and not tell anyone. I've seen it. In America no one really care it seems if you are so no secrets really. I personally have old fashioned values. If I could move back to the 1960s I would. Mad Men, awesome show. I want to be married to a women that is a women. Both sets of my grandparents were married till they passed away. 55+ yrs and 60+ respectively. I want that. But it seems that those days are over. Very sad really. They meet, fall in love, bam. Get married pump out kids etc. Now days in the States it's like, meet, vet each other out, have dates (interviews) check items off the list, have sex, start being exclusive, a year or two go by, break up at littlest thing, on to the next.

I find it very disturbing. I'm no economist, psychologist, or any other person qualified to speak with any actual facts on the matter but it seems to me that since women have become independent it's gotten worse. Their check lists have gotten longer, have become picky, etc. I suppose that this is normal evolution. When you have the freedom to choose, you probably have more things that you look for then just a beating heart and a job. Now before anyone thinks that I want to oppress women back into the kitchen I don't. Read my other posts. I'm all for women being independent. But reasonable also.

Perhaps you think, well, maybe your some old fat guy that just couldn't get girls in the States. Well, sadly I'm not. I also have plenty of friends that are very good looking and still have problems trying to find a women. I personally have always been the friend. Perhaps I treat girls too well. But that's just me. I don't want to be an -beep- and apparently that is what American girls want. Of course not all are like that, but I have met my fair share and lived in various parts of the United States and it's all the same for the most part. Usually after 30 is when the unmarried women start thinking that the nice guy is the one that you want to marry. I've seen that plenty of times too. Bummer that they couldn't of seen that sooner.

So the business transaction that you mention. I actually kind of like it. I want to provide for my future family. But it all has to be within reason. I will not buy a ton of purses just because my girl likes purses. Not going to happen. But there will be food on the table and clothes to wear. Yes they have money and the ability to provide on the top of the check list in China. As long as they have reasonable expectations, I'm ok with that. It's much like the early 1900s in the States I would imagine. Better than today's American checklists that probably have tall, handsome, and rides a Harley on the top. Followed by must love vampire movies and Ryan Gosling abs.

Anyway, I have found that living abroad gives new perspective on life. I am thankful to have it. What I do with it is anyone's guess. I don't know yet. I've seen English teachers make a living and stay here. I've seen well off people make a life here (plan to go back though). All have kids, all doing fine. I'll find my way just like you will too. However the new perspective, the new knowledge sometimes make going back to the old places hard, painful, and also make you alienated. People are for sure going to look at me weird when I move back to the States and never use a fork again.

Cheers.