Email subscribe to LLC blog updates:
Your email:
www.agoda.com

Recent comments
«  
  »

Love Is The Art That Must Be Practiced – Part I

爱是种艺术，它必须得到实践 – 第一章

MeditationThis post is inspired by one of the best books about love – Erich Fromm’s bestseller “The Art of Loving” written in 1956. I want to apologize in advance that it will be less related to the central topic of my blog – Chinese girls. But it should resonate with people who are willing to learn the art of loving.

The last sentence might confuse some of the readers. Is there anything to learn about loving? And is love an art? Exactly this question opens the book. The author unequivocally proves that loving is an art which can be learned and practiced.

There is a paradox: on one hand we are starving for love and are ready to do everything in order to dive into the pleasant sensations it promises. On another hand majority of people fail time after time, go through a series of heartbreaking experiences, and eventually give up to find true LOVE which would comprise both passion and commitment.

They watch endless numbers of films about happy and unhappy love stories, they listen to hundreds of trashy songs about love – yet hardly anyone thinks that there is anything that needs to be learned about love.

According to Fromm people wrongly suppose that the main problem is to find someone who will love us. “Give me someone who will love me, and I will love him/her back”. Because of such mindset – when people try to be loved instead of loving – the mostly utilized way to succeed is to make ourselves lovable. Women do it by making themselves prettier and more sexually appealing. Men achieve it by gaining more social power or earning more money (or reading Crystal Tao’s dating advises :-) ).

Another problem is dictated by the consumerist approach of modern society (even though the book was written more than 50 years ago – little has changed since then). Lifetime partners are just another kind of commodity and as in any other market a good bargain is the result of mutually favorable exchange.

Modern man’s happiness consists in the thrill of looking at the shop windows, and in buying all that he can afford to buy <…> He (or she) looks at people in a similar way. For the man an attractive girl – and for the woman an attractive man – are the prizes they are after. “Attractive” usually means a nice package of qualities which are popular <…> The sense of falling in love develops usually only with regard to such human commodities as are within reach of one’s own possibilities of exchange.

 

But even if we accept the rules of this game, deep inside most of us don’t want to be just the goods in the market (even if this is love market). Thus, let me spare you from the further overview of Fromm’s theory and turn to its practical implications.

Last chapter of the book is titled “The Practice of Love”. In it Erich Fromm introduced eight premises which in his opinion are vital to the art of loving. The person who practices them as skills has a chance to become the master of this art. But before I name these premises let me quote the warning voiced by the author himself.

To love is a personal experience which everyone can only have by and for himself <…> The steps toward the goal can be practiced only by oneself, and discussion ends before the decisive step is taken.

So let’s have a look at the prerequisites of the art of loving. First four of them are the universal premises for any kind of art.

1)  Discipline. This is the first general requirement and it means doing things in the organized way. Not only the person has to be organized when it comes to that specific activity that he is interested in – discipline must embrace his whole life. Why are we able to follow certain rules when we are forced from outside (for example, at work), but in free time – once we are bosses of ourselves – we lack any responsibility and just want to relax, throwing our tired bodies to sofa and switching on TV. Why don’t we spend a quality time with our beloved and have an interesting conversation instead? Or finish together the housework and go out for a walk?

Let me give you an example of my relationship with boyfriend from the time when we lived in different countries. We had a time difference of 5 or 6 hours (depending on time of the year). Every morning he was getting up one hour earlier so that we could have MSN chat (during my lunch break). And every single day we were exchanging e-mails. I was writing to him before going to sleep and he was reading my mail after coming back from work. Then he was writing the reply which I was reading in the morning. And every weekend we had a longer video-chat. Sticking to such schedule requires some discipline and many of the readers had a similar experience.

So – isn’t it natural to spend even more quality time together once the distance barrier is broken?

2)  Concentration. There is little need to prove that high level of concentration is the necessary skill to achieve mastery in any kind of art. And it is even rarer than discipline.

Our culture leads to an unconcentrated and diffused mode of life <…> You do many things at once: you read, listen to the radio, talk, smoke, eat, drink. You are the consumer with the open mouth, eager and ready to swallow everything – pictures, liquor, knowledge.

Take a look at how cleverly the online dating industry exploits our consumerist nature. The whole interface of dating sites is designed to create an anonymous environment for pleasant consuming of as many stimuli in parallel as possible. You log in to your profile and the “clicking” game starts.

First let’s create the search criteria… aha, let’s limit the girls’ weight to XXX. Click… click… Hmm… this one is ugly, this one I already tried to contact yesterday, aha – this one is not bad – let’s save her into “favorites” folder. Click… click… no picture? Shit! Have to change the search options and exclude those without pictures. Okay, what do we have here? Umm, not bad, not bad – let’s wink / send smile / send interest… Click… click… oh – tasty one and she is online! … Starting live chat… (“Hi. How are you? What are you doing?”) Wow, here is another one… starting another live chat. (“Hi. How are you? What are you doing?”) Click… click…

But why am I taking the extreme examples of online dating? How often do we really concentrate on what we are doing at the current moment? Having a meaningful conversation while looking into the partner’s eyes? Listening and hearing what the other says; and really meaning what we are saying? Without thinking at the same time about the bills you forgot to pay, work you haven’t finished or just waiting impatiently for the moment when she stops talking.

3)  Patience. And again the modern society stimulates the opposite qualities. Everything that we want to consume – we want it here and we want it now. The new machine is better if it can perform the same job quicker that the older model. But does it make us happier? On the contrary – we become even more impatient.

Modern man thinks he loses something – time – when he does not do things quickly; yet he does not know what to do with the time he gains – except kill it.

Sometimes I can’t understand how people communicated with their beloved ones in the past (without the help of e-mails, instant messengers and telephones). Why wasting time on courtship when there is such thing as online dating or even speed dating? And why would man wait until girl decides whether she is ready for intimacy? Instead he can find another one and have sex after the second date.

It’s appropriate to mention the comment left by @NorthEuropean to the post about Chinabounder:

The number one thing I often read the Chinese girls jump too quickly into bed (yes, even the ChinaBounder like of guys admit it OPENLY on many China expat forums!!), I would say to those Chinese girls who are out for a serious and lasting relationship with a foreign man she should wait SEVERAL weeks at least before having intercourse, that will put off most impatient players.

 

4)  Supreme concern is the fourth premise which is common to all kind of activities that a person wants to practice and develop to the state of art. Lack of concern (which is sincere and deep interest in the subject) is the key difference between amateurs and masters.

 

Before proceeding to the next four premises that are specific to the art of loving – it’s necessary to note that in the beginning any kind of art is learned through a set of seemingly unrelated activities which help the apprentice to reach the necessary state of mind.

This is also true for the “apprentices” of love who must incorporate discipline, concentration and patience into their life (I assume that supreme concern – strong desire to love – is already there).

There are different kinds of activities which can help people to practice these skills.

For example, patiently waiting for the second part of this post ;-)

Apprentice Crystal Tao

Incoming search terms:

  • the practice of love erich fromm
  • love is the art that must be practiced – part i
  • fucking love in china
  • the art of loving the practice of love
  • The art of loving someone 12 years
  • the art of loving erich fromm the practice of love summary
  • practice love chinese
  • Meditation china
  • Learned the practice of love and sex together
  • learn the practice of love and sex together
  • How can I practice love and sex together
  • the practice of love in marriage

If you liked this article, consider to subscribe to new LoveLoveChina posts by RSS. You can also follow me on Twitter and Facebook.

And most important! I want to invite you to join LoveLoveChina forums where you can read posts on different topics, leave replies and post your own threads.

  • Nick

    I’m sure I will be teased about this, but I have to comment about what “NorthEuropean” said and was quoted here.

    Several WEEKS? How about months or years? Maybe I’m just older, but I personally would rather wait a bit more than just weeks before that kind of intimacy with anyone. To me, that kind of intimacy implies a serious commitment.

    OK. I’m old-fashioned. Deal with it. I would be deeply troubled by anyone who would move to that level of intimacy after only weeks. In fact, that would be a huge red flag warning me to get away from that lady.

    One of the beauties of a long-distance relationship, as I am sure Crystal discovered in her own case and I know I did in mine, was that the distance and lack of physical contact made it easier to focus on the other person as a person – to know her better.

    The discipline of daily phone calls and weekly video calls built up a deep and meaningful relationship. Daily emails and text messages are wonderful as well. It is wonderful to wake up and find a sweet text message from my little angel waiting for me to start my day. I always watch the clock so I can send a text message to “tuck her in”, so to speak, as she prepares to go to bed. The 12-13 hour time difference in our case makes it easier for me to keep track of such things.

    (Technical note – TMobile does not strip the high bit on text messages, so you can send and receive text messages in Chinese if you use TMobile and your phone supports it. That’s how I do it.)

    Crystal, you are an angel. I am greatly enjoying this blog and I am hoping that I will learn things here that will help me be an even better friend and love for my Chinese angel.

    • North European

      Should perhaps add that, the advice was directed at a group which perhaps is in more need for guidance in a fast changing country as China where the standards and the environment is changing so quickly, the younger and more liberate generation, and by adding the words “at least” there’s an implicit wish for maybe even more time, but it all boils down to the summed view of the society and who are we to set some rules in an ever changing society though we can always express them, some times we have to change our attitude in ourselves to be in pace with the world.

      If there’s something I would be worried about it would be if my GF had a lot of partners in the past, not if she would insist on sex in an early stage, in that case I would feel as the chosen one.
      And if 2 people are truly honest and serious with each other what makes them less good if they decide to have sex sooner than later.

      btw, I’m not that young either and I have gone through a long distance relationship too until we met after a full year so I know what a PITA it is. :cool:

      zai jian

      • Nick

        A full year? Lucky for you it was that short of a time.

        It was nearly three years before everything worked out with visas, etc, and I was able to meet Ivy face to face. Yes, it was frustrating, but I still hold that the “forced” physical separation allowed us to focus on strengthening other aspects of the relationship, and that strength in the other parts of the relationship have held us together through some very difficult times.

  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    By me you sure won’t be teased.
    Old-fashioned guys are very fashionable :!:

    • Nick

      My Ivy certainly thinks so. :-) I enjoy treating her like a princess – spoiling her and pampering her whenever I can. She is stunningly beautiful, and it requires a great deal of restraint to behave myself, but I do so out of respect for her. She knows that I love her and that I find her quite desirable, but I want her to understand that I respect her and that I truly love her before we do anything like that.

      Yes, I’m old-fashioned. Younger ladies may think I’m a bit odd, but I am not looking for a younger lady. My lady is only one year my junior, and we agree on these things. I think _that_ is the most important issue. We treat each other with respect in the way we know that the other wants to be treated.

  • PL

    Sorry Nick, but I have to disagree.

    Months ? Years ? Call me shallow, but I would be moving on. After a couple of weeks I was climbing the walls. Oh, and I was happy to enter into a commitment.

    Actually, very, very few Chinese girls jump ‘too quickly into bed’. And even if they do jump into bed quickly, should we judge them ? What’s wrong with enjoying that side of things ? I get very slightly angered when people get all moral about what, to me, is a perfectly healthy and natural desire for physical and sensual pleasure.

    Unfortunately, if you look at Victorian times, if we’re going to talk about ‘old fashioned’, men were expected to be ‘experienced’ and women shy virgins. Yet how could men become experienced if all women were shy virgins ? Only through the most ridiculous hypocrisy. Yes, it was okay to exploit the poor and desperate for sexual experience, but then you could settle down with a ‘nice girl’ (of your own social class) who was too inexperienced to realise that she was getting poor service from a sexually selfish and dominating man.

    Nope, I refuse to be a part of that. Women are sexual creatures and that should be appreciated.

    Hope I don’t embarrass some posters too much with this ;-)

    • Nick

      PL,

      I think you and I will simply need to agree to disagree on the timing issue, but I do agree with you on the other points. Physical intimacy is a very special thing in my mind and I want to be very careful with whom I share that level of intimacy.

      It is not about the desires being unhealthy. I agree with you that they are healthy. I suspect I am a bit older than you are and I was just raised differently.

    • Nick

      Oh, and I won’t call you shallow. Sorry. We’re just different, PL. Your comment about being ready and willing to enter into a commitment indicates that you are not a “player” just trying to seduce the ladies. I honestly think it’s just a generational difference, PL. Ivy and I are both in our 40s.

      • PL

        Hi Nick

        I myself am in my early 40s. Not so sure that it’s a generational issue, more one of background.

  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    Maybe I have to create a poll and find out how long an average guy is ready to wait before moving on :roll:

    • Neil

      That would be a difficult poll to quantify. Each relationship is different. I’ve been in long distance relationships and waited months, and I’ve been in relationships where she was more eager to become sexual than I was. In fact, her inability to restrain herself was a huge turn-off for me and the passion of finally being together in my long distance relationship was very rewarding.

      It’s not so much about time as it is about progression. Relationships evolve. There’s something to be said for anticipation.

    • China Shark Mike

      Depends on the situation. If you were living here with her there is no way you would have waited the length of time you are talking about. Living in different countries gives you the leisure to take your time and get to know one better. We are sexual creatures and it is one of the best parts of life. I’m 47 and I will not say that I would be pining over a woman after we realised it was right. If she in her forties female menopause will be kicking in at around 50 with Chinese ladies. So what your saying is that you’re willing to forego physical intimacy for some antiquated norms of 20 years ago. Think you’re in denial or your on the Viagra train. Hell, I have never felt so alive in all my life living here. Times have changed and I think your viewing things in some kind of timewarp. Satisfy her now before her biological clock goes kaput. It is not about the sex but consumating a commitment to one another. Doesn’t have to be immediate but within reason. If I don’t broach the subject maybe she’ll think she is not attractive enough. {Chinese women are very insecure about these things}.

  • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

    Thanks for this Crystal, I remember reading that book back in the late 60s when I was a teenager; as you say, it still speaks to us today if we’ll listen. I like the focus on being loving as an art and a practice that one trains oneself in. Men in particular should respond to the challenge to “become good” or “being a master” at being loving. In the parlance of recent years of pop psychology US-style, folks remind us that “love is a verb” — meaning it’s not just enough to feel love for someone.

    I’m also struck by how much of what is needed to develop this art is part of traditional Buddhist training: concentration, patience, discipline. Discipline in particular is missing from many people’s lives: we have discipline imposed on us by outside forces (e.g., work) but for many of us our non-work time is spent mostly in non-productive endeavors (watching TV) that we think help us cope with the stresses of work.

    As for the recent discussion of “timing” and sexuality, I’ll just comment that we did not wait a long time (two days I think) after meeting in person; but we had emailed, chatted, phoned, and sent video clips back and forth almost daily for 4 1/2 months, and I think on both sides there was the sense that a commitment had already been made and all that was remaining was the physical presence to confirm that. (BTW we’re both in our 50s) I certainly second the notion suggested in your article that people (both boys and girls) should wait a while when first getting to know someone before engaging in sexual activity: it complicates things too quickly. And I know something about this, having grown up in the “sexual revolution” of the 60s and 70s USA… :grin:

    Our physical desires are healthy but the satisfying of them should be governed by a smart mind and a compassionate heart.

  • ~

    Why are we able to follow certain rules when we are forced from outside (for example, at work)

    Simple. Most people truly don’t wanna be homeles. Most people make money by working for others. They gotta hold their tongue to get money.

    Very few people marry for real feelings. Look at the divorce and infidelity rates. Most people don’t care about their relationships. They’d rather be in a relationship but when it comes down to it, they don’t really care like people would like to quite smoking but don’t care enough to actually do it

    Sex – No problems not having sex or even not holding hands for the first 6 month. But the other person better fucking truly ask themselves every millisecond of every day if they have REAL NATURAL feelings for me or just want to marry me because I’m a nice guy. If after 6 month the girl still can’t have sex then it simply means she doesn’t have REAL NATURAL feelings for me and I don’t need any average girl to like me

    My last gf was Chinese and could be extremely cute and adorable. When I first met her I personally saw 3 guys chasing after her ever second they had. After dating a couple month I felt something was wrong. She refused to say anything. About 4 month later I finally forced her to tell the turth, she told me I was right the whole time she just liked me, nothing more. She truly did enjoy the time we spent together, could be very nice to me if we married, thought we could have a nice life together (political correct for money, house, car) but nothing else. Didn’t wanna spend much time with me, would rather be alone or with her girlfriends. Didn’t NATURALLY think about me but instead she said to me “wo mei tian dou wen wo zi ji wo xiang mei xiang ni, ru guo wo bu xiang ni na wo ju dui bu qi ni. Great, a relationship based on guilt. Fucking pathetic

    Long distance relationships – distance and time don’t change anything. I love long distance relationships, especially when you’re thousands and thousands of miles apart. You get to find out if the person truly likes you or is just attracted to the life you 2 can have together

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      Very few people marry for real feelings. Look at the divorce and infidelity rates. Most people don’t care about their relationships.

      I would disagree. I think that most of the people who eventually divorce married for very real feelings.
      The truth, however, is that love is a job – job in which both partners need to make many little, but everyday efforts. It’s like keeping the fire burning – you continuously need to find and bring new wooden sticks to add to the fire.

      And if you are lazy, if you don’t have discipline, just want to relax and watch the fire burning and warming you by itself – or even worse put the responsibility of keeping it burning on your partner – then sooner or later the only thing that will link between you will be just common debts (and kids who are not guilty for their parents’ laziness).

      • Nick

        Well said, Crystal! I remember a line from a song: “Love is not a feeling, it’s an act of the will.”

        Love is hard work, but it is worth it. It’s easy to forget to send that little text message before your sweetheart goes to bed in a different time zone, but it means so much to her to know that you remember where she is in her day even though you are twelve hours apart. I always, every day, send a text message to Ivy to “tuck her in” at night her time, right around lunchtime for me. She always does the same when I’m going to bed.

        It takes considerable and consistent effort to make a relationship work.

      • Bill

        All true, but having been married for 12 years and together for 17 years, I believe the other element not mentioned is a strong belief, or commitment, to the idea of marriage. Passion slowly (or quickly) fades and if the relationship is to survive as a good one a deeper partnership based on sharing a life (interests, friends, and usually children) needs to come into being. I haven’t seen one where ‘texting’ or ‘holding the door open’ or the like is the key to a long relationship.

        I’ve heard all the talk about ‘working’ on a marriage. What this means to me is that there are times when you feel like ditching out. If some deeper commitment isn’t at work, often things can go downhill and it’s divorce time (or worse, a shell of a marriage). But if the commitment to the marriage is there, you ‘work’ through this feeling. To me, this means means coming to terms with yourself and deciding that the marriage, the partnership is what’s most important to you. So you don’t flee into affairs, working late, and other distractions. You keep the relationship front and center.

        In other words, there will come a time when you have to make choice – to do what’s right, not always what you feel like doing. That’s the harder work, IMO.

        • Nick

          Bill,

          I know that holding the door and texting in and of themselves will not maintain a relationship. I was trying to say that the “little” things help to keep the relationship “front and centre”, as you put it. It’s the constant effort to show consideration and appreciation for the other person that helps.

          I agree with you, Bill. It is hard work to make a relationship work, but it’s worth it.

        • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

          I absolutely agree with you Bill. But there is no omission. It’s just that in the first part of the post I’ve mentioned only first 4 out of 8 premises.

          Actually, belief – or in Fromm’s own words “rational belief” is one of those eight abilities which are necessary in order to be able to love.

          • Bill

            Crystal,

            Pardon my impatience – I should have waited for your complete post!

      • ~

        love is a job – job in which both partners need to make many little, but everyday efforts

        So a willingness to work at it means love? So according to you most of the people in the world absolutely love their jobs because they get up day after day and go to work? Really? So Foxconn workers love their job? Extremely poor farmers love their work? Prostitutes love their work? Garbage workers love their job?

        Or explain the high US military divorce rate. Some of the people have been married for a few years before their deploymentand some get married right before, for their so called “love” Then couple years later the person back home writes a letter saying they want a divorce. Just because they’re tired of being alone. This is love to you?

        Or think about this this way. Chinese people are supposed to be good at math right? How many people does the average person SERIOUSLY date? 5? 10? 20? 50? Approx 6 billion people in the world. Keep things simple and say 3 bill guys and 3 bill girls. So 50/3 billion is .0000000166666 or 00000166% or 2 millionths of 1 percent, I rounded up. Meaning it is statistically IMPROBABLE for most people to find love

        I did NOT say everything is easy and automatic for people that are REALLY in love
        I did NOT say that just because you can’t get enough of each other and constantly want to be together it automatically means love
        I DID say its NOT love if more than a very small amount of your relationship is unnatural or forced. A=B =/= B=A

        To the whole world, guys and girls from every country, stop cheapening the word love

        • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

          The answers to all these rethoric questions is “No”.

          I see the following flaws in your criticism:
          1) You missed the element of “supreme concern”. Foxconn workers, farmers and 90%+ of employees do not have deep interest in what they are doing – thus no love here.

          2) A little fault from my side – I did not stress enough the distinction which Fromm makes between self-imposed discipline (or internal discipline) and the discipline forced from outside. In all cases that you mentioned people are forced to do something by external forces.

          3) I said that discipline is the necessary prerequisite of love. You say: “There are people who have discipline, but they definitely do not love their job! Thus Crystal’s previous statement is false”
          I think that such deduction is not logically correct.

          • David

            In response to 3), we would say that discipline is therefore a “necessary but not sufficient” condition for love. That is, discipline is necessary for love to exist, but the presence of discipline is not a guarantee of the presence of love; other things are also required.

          • ~

            So the concerns these people have for their job isn’t “grave” enough. So then what is grave enough? Calling eachother every day? Taking care of the person when they’re sick? Donating an organ? Fighting in a war?

            How many smokers does China have? Or maybe its easier to ask how many nonsmokers does China has. How many of them don’t know that smoking is bad? How many men “love” their wife and kid enough to stop smoking when “the love of their life” is pregnant? How many people, mostly men, even today will give a crying baby a little alcohol just to shut the kid up? Is this love to you? How many men WANT to go home to their wives? How many man look for a reason not to go home to their wives and instead go to KTV, regular bars or restaurants or play majhong with a bunch of guys until midnight? This is love?

            Real relationships based on true feelings are very rare. I’m VERY LUCKY to know a couple that has true feelings for eachother. Just watching them is fucking amazing. While their friend are constantly complaining abour their spouses these 2 NATURALLY have less, WAY less, complaints about eachother. They NATURALLY want to spend every possible moment together. Of course most people, the ones in fake relationships, will use the words clingy or needy to describe them instead

            But hey, its your blog, no reason for me to shove my views down your throat

        • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

          As for the cheapening of the word “love” and forcing the relationship: I think that expecting love to be a natural thing that just happens to us or that we are falling into it – this is “cheapening” of love. Treating love as an everyday job (which you sincerely want to do because you are aware of great spiritual rewards it gives) is one of the things that a person can do in order to raise its value.

          Of course, you are right about the mathematics meaning that if there would be just ONE person in the world who would fit us – then it would be impossible for most of people to find their true love. But this actually strengthens my statement: finding someone who is basically compatible with you is not statistically improbable – but this is just a starting point from which the relationship must be cultivated further and it requires efforts.

          Finally, let’s not forget that in the past there has been (and in many places still exists) the institution of pre-arranged marriages. It would be a naive mistake to suppose that all people in such marriages are unhappy. Actually, many spouses would say that their relationships from the very beginning were based on sympathy and mutual respect and with years their feelings grew stronger and stronger –> this is love!

          • Meng

            Great site, Crystal, lots of fun. Great post, too, very insightful. However, I have to disagree; I feel that treating a relationship as a job cheapens it. I would say that, in this sense, a relationship should be more like a career rather than a job. A job implies that you have certain duties to perform, that you don’t want to do. Maybe you know you’re supposed to be faithful, but you really want to sleep with that cute co-worker. That’s not love to me. If it’s a career, fine. That’s something you really want to do, and you have certain duties that you enjoy performing while there. You don’t want to sleep with the cute co-worker because you’re completely satisfied with your lover.

            I’m in a long-term relationship and we’ve been on opposite sides of the planet for 2 months now. When we’re together, it’s pure bliss. There’s no trying, we just fit. When we’re apart, I miss her, but it’s not so much work to keep it going. After living together and being together constantly, 2 months apart is an eternity, but there hasn’t been a moment that either of us has wavered. We video-chat on skype 1 or 2 times a day, we talk on instant messenger. When we don’t, it’s not the end of the world. We know that the other is doing something important, we know that we still love each other madly. We both feel each others’ love constantly, with or without the prosthesis of the internet.

            Real love doesn’t need much TRYING, it just IS. If you’re really trying so hard that it feels like work, maybe you should reconsider the relationship. I guess different people have different expectations of a relationship. They can be based merely on mutual respect and/or compatible sex drives, but love shouldn’t be forced. It should just come naturally, and when it’s there, everything else just falls into place. Likewise, if there’s love but everything else is forced, perhaps the current plan should be scrapped and try again from a different angle. For some people, sex really is more important than love so they have to work to keep the sex part and love part balanced. Personally, sex is great, but it doesn’t hold a candle to love. If people find themselves using discipline to keep a relationship going, maybe they should drop the fantasy. Ask yourself whether you’re really in love with somebody, or just the idea of them, some higher ideal of what they could be, what you could be together. It’s not romantic, it’s codependent and can be unhealthy. I prefer real-life romance, when you don’t have to go searching for love because you merely meet somebody and fall in love with them, whether you were looking or not. That’s how it happens. Everything else requires work because you’re just building a pipe dream. Stop looking for Mr./Mrs. Right and BE Mr./Mrs. Right.

            • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

              Meng, great post to which I mostly agree. Matter of fact, most of the posters here think they’re disagreeing but really they’re just reflecting another facet of this whole subject.

              I do want to take issue with you on a small point (and I may be misinterpreting your words). I would want, were I your lover, to know that, even if you were temporarily or for some time dissatisfied with me, you would still not sleep with that cute co-worker. That’s where the work, discipline, and commitment come in. Work, though a four-letter word, doesn’t have to imply suffering. If you love someone, working through difficulties is what you do want to do.

              After a 24-year marriage that was mostly good but ended in divorce (not my idea), I have what I think is a fairly deep understanding of the need for commitment and discipline – having said that, as you suggest, these things should not be horribly difficult to do, if they flow out of love. There will be times though, when they might not be easy — and that will be the test.

              Congratulations on your wonderful and loving relationship — I hope it lasts the rest of your lives. You sound very happy together, and that’s wonderful.

              • Meng

                That’s a really valid question, TLB. In my case, no, if I were dissatisfied with a lover, I wouldn’t sleep with the cute co-worker. Let me give you an example, as I’ve actually dealt with that in a previous relationship. The woman I was dating was going through some family issues, so ended up taking it out on me in a somewhat abusive way. I didn’t blame her too much because I knew what was going on, but it certainly didn’t make me happy. A co-worker heard about it and made a fairly blatant advance. I gently turned her down, not because I didn’t find her attractive, but because I didn’t want sex with anybody other than my girlfriend.

                When I’m with somebody, I’m with them completely until it’s over. It still doesn’t feel like work to me, nor is it particularly difficult for me. I don’t feel like I have to push through. I don’t have to go have a long talk with myself or whatever to convince myself to be faithful. It’s not that I don’t look at other women sometimes. Of course I do, that’s natural. I just don’t go the extra step to actually having some secret desire to sleep with them. I mean, sexual satisfaction shouldn’t be a problem for anybody. We’re not animals, we know how to feed our libido, our id. If somebody is feeling dissatisfied physically, there’s something else going on. I feel like sexual dissatisfaction in a relationship is a syndrome of emotional dissatisfaction. When I was in that relationship, I felt very dissatisfied on an emotional level towards the end, like I was taking care of this petulant child in a woman’s body, and so I ended the relationship. I loved her very much but, sometimes, love just isn’t enough.

                I’m not saying that, at the first sign of trouble, to duck out of a relationship, absolutely not. Most couples have little spats and rocky patches. What I mean is, sometimes the love just goes out, but many people try to remind themselves of how much they love each other so they can stay together. I don’t think you should have to remind yourself. When love is there, it’s there no matter what.

                That’s how I feel with my current girlfriend. I’ve been deeply, deeply in love before, and I’ve been in longer relationships, but I’ve never felt this level of compatibility, never felt so at home, so confident and in love from so early on. We’ve had a couple of spats but no rocky patches. This is mainly because our spats last about 10 seconds and then it’s done. We love each other so much that we just clean up the spats very quickly and then go back to being happy. We listen to each other carefully and then laugh about it later. Friends have asked me what I’d do if we ever did have a rocky patch. I can’t imagine I’d do anything differently. Clarify, listen, love.

                I marvel at what a 24-year marriage must be like. It’s a certainty that you truly loved her for a long time. I wonder what was strong enough to break that bond. I see that you’ve found somebody new and I hope you find just as much–more!–happiness with her.

                • Bill

                  Meng, when I was 23 I would have written what you wrote. I’m twice that age now and I wouldn’t write it now, or perhaps I should say that what you expressed is a good and necessary phase in a good relationship. But your comments about relationships taking a natural course are the comments of a young person.

                  Every good relationship hopefully has a phase where the relationship is effortless. I cannot speak for you (because I suppose there are exceptions) but all the relationships I’ve seen do not stay that way. There comes a softening of the longing for intimacy, and the relationship, to survive as a good one, must deepen beyond romantic love. This is usually where some thinking must rise up to complement (and probably even compensate for) a fading lust. It is the danger point. And to be clear, I’m not talking about ‘long term’ 3 year relationships – I’m talking about a commitment to marriage and probably a family.

                  So, with my older person’s POV, I think I will bow out of this thread, as I feel like I’m pouring cold water on a subject that everyone learns about one way or another, and usually on their own terms anyways.

                  And best to you, Meng.

                  • Meng

                    For sure, Bill, lots of relationships fade out. But I’ve been in enough long-term relationships to know the difference. I’m not 23 anymore either ;-) , so these aren’t the words of a dewey-eyed young man. I’ve been around the block, even set up a home and family on said block. I’ve had my heart broken and broken hearts. I don’t have a young man’s POV. I’m merely a realist.

                    Many people stay in relationships that are in a gray area, where there’s just as many rocky spots as happy spots. That’s just ridiculous to me. Why stay in an unhappy relationship just because you love somebody so much that you’re willing to deal with it? If you loved them so much, you wouldn’t be unhappy. I know how relationships can fizzle, and I know many people stay in those relationships merely because they don’t want to be alone.

                    Being alone isn’t that bad. Being in a bad relationship is much worse. Being in a long-term bad relationship is quite dangerous. You become so codependent that you don’t know how to live your life without the other person. Forget about splitting up, it would be like carving off part of your own psyche. It’s no longer a question of working through the problems, because splitting up is much harder. Now you’re just maintaining a lifestyle, it’s not really a relationship.

                    Maybe my current relationship is the exception, or maybe this is just how love should be. I feel like, however, that, with a burgeoning world population as well as the accessibility of international travel and the international online community, it’s more likely that people can meet someone with whom they are truly in love and compatible.

                  • ~

                    Fewer young people feel marriage is a necessity, mostly men but also sucessful women

                    Women are constantly using the excuse men are afraid of intimitacy and commitment. No most men aren’t afraid of either. We’re just sick and tired of a fake relationship, a relationship where we can’t be ourselves, where we’re constantly putting on an act just to keep the peace

                    You don’t NEED marriage Bill

            • ~

              a relationship should be more like a career rather than a job

              Not even the average career. More like something you really want to do. Like some Microsoft guy making 6 figures quitting his job to open schools in India or Cambodia or somewhere with HIS OWN money. How many people “love” their spouses this much?

              Real love doesn’t need much TRYING, it just IS

              YES

            • China Shark Mike

              Meng great observations, school these youngins. Truth be told I was once married to a Chinese girl I thought I loved. 1 out of 3 girlfriends I met here I can honestly say I loved her. That is 75% failure rate but will not give up the notion of true love. I think everyone’s perception of love is different. Who is to say what is appropiate for one person to the next. Too much in China I see empty marraiges, people marry for businesslike reasons. My private student might see her husband a few hours over a weekend. Her marraige is a sham, she doesn’t love him yet feels comfortable with China’s status quo. Finding true love I think is damn near impossible. Love is about comprimising and trying to make each other work. If you want to be great at anything you need to invest your emotional time into it. I bodybuld so I know the old saying no pain no gain. If you do not feel pain you are not growing or progressing in your endevour. I’ll not settle for just any woman in life. I’ll probably live another 40-50 years so I’m making sure I get it right the second time around.

  • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

    Bill, I think you’re spot on (I’m not a Brit, I just like the way that sounds): the commitment to the relationship has to be stronger than our desire to “be right” or to have our desires satisfied.

    When things get tough (and they will) do you turn toward each other or away? Are keeping peace, being compassionate, and being humble more important than winning an argument?

  • David

    It is so surprising to see a young, Chinese woman reading Erich Fromm. Any young woman for that matter.

    He was one of the great humanists. I had the pleasure to meet and speak with him once. I will never forget that.

  • BlackSugarDaddy

    Hey I don’t need love. All I need is a chesty docile beatnik beauty to spoil :D

  • http://motpol.blogspot.com Hans Engnell

    The intimacy bit can be challenging when coming from different cultures. In Sweden your girlfriend or boyfriend would wonder what’s wrong if you haven’t had sex during your first week or so as a couple. I had this discussion with my girlfriend, who insisted on that we should marry first. To me this was hard to accept since we’re still living apart and don’t see each other as much as we would like (far from it). Now I know that it was her way of proecting herself until she knew I was honest and serious about us and not just interested in sex. So when I last visited her in China it did not take long. :smile:

    But hey, this is all up to you and your partner to decide. No one else can tell you what’s right or wrong. As long as you can talk about it and be ready to give and take, you’ll be fine. With mutual respect and the ability to communicate, we all have a good chance to solve our differences. 小问题=没问题!

  • BlackSugarDaddy

    Hello Crystal

    I guest you may feel interested in writing a story about chinese men’s virgin complex ! ! ! !! I’ve been seeing loads of threads circulating on the internet. Go for it !!

    • China Shark Mike

      Don’t believe the hype about virgins here in China. If she’s in a remote village she might last until she’s 17 or 18 tops. What do the treads state anyway? You know what people say about opinions. Take 90% of what people say on the internet and throw it out as hogwash including my words. See China for yourself then make more objective statements. Chinese guys just frequent hookers once every 2 or 3 months. Chinese have more sexual proclivities than I’ve ever saw in my hometown Philadephia or New York City or Los Angelos. That tradition I’m a sweet girl changes as soon as the door close.

      • Meng

        I’m sorry, Mike, but, frankly, I feel that’s a fallacy. While there are tons of “modern” girls who like to play, especially in the cities, there are still legions of traditional girls who won’t have sex until they’re married, won’t even play around. I’ve been living in China for a couple years now, and I’ve been in pretty close contact with both younger crowds and folk closer to my own age. Now, while I’m sure there are girls who say they’re still virgins just out of modesty, some truly never have been touched by a man. Yes, tons of Chinese men, single or not, are frequent customers of 妓女jinu,prostitutes, but that doesn’t mean that they’re connected to their sexuality. Many Chinese men are actually quite awkward around women. I know quite a few Chinese men who, even in their mid-20s, have never had a girlfriend. When I first moved to China, there were times that I felt like I was in an episode of “Little House on the 农村Nongcun.” Not to be a cad, but obviously it’s not a problem, as there are tons of women who don’t listen to their parents, don’t wait until marriage, don’t even wait until they’re in a relationship, and being a well-built foreigner doesn’t hurt. I’ve heard more than a few Chinese women say they’re tired of being stronger than Chinese boys, that they have to protect their boyfriends, and we’re a breath of fresh air. But do you merely want to take advantage of this or do you want to find a woman that appreciates you for who you are rather than what you are, and isn’t it worth it to wait until she’s ready? I’m not saying that virgins are the best, and anyone who’s already had sex is a ruined woman, that’s ridiculous. As far as the virgin complex I think it doesn’t matter. There are people, both men and women, who are naturally good at sex early on, and others who will never get better despite experience. Like everywhere, you can’t make generalizations about a billion and a half people, because they will constantly defy those generalizations.

  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    Thanks for suggestion, @SugarDaddy.
    I will think about it…

  • China Shark Mike

    Generalizations are just that, not all the time they apply, but a lot of times the broad stroke of the brush fills the criteria of the stereotype.