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Ask Chinese Girls: Troubles Finding a Boyfriend

Chinese men

This is the first installment of “Ask Chinese Girls” series. Idea for these series was inspired by Kaiwen – the member of LoveLoveChina forum – who suggested me to check out the Formspring platform where users can create a page through which other people will ask and answer different questions.

In my case these will be the questions about Chinese girls. But rather than answer them by myself, I will forward them to different Chinese forums. The compilation of translated answers will be published here.

The first question was:

“Why do so many Chinese girls have trouble finding boyfriends even though there are more men than women in China?”

Background:

  1. Due to abnormally high male-to-female ratio at birth and higher infant mortality among females – China has a surplus of young men of marriageable age.
  2. In spite of this fact some Chinese girls do not succeed to find boyfriend (and eventually marry) and become “leftover” women.

And here are the answers of Chinese netizens (not only girls, but from context it’s quite easy to guess the gender).

***

Because nowadays, girls are neither very successful nor are they failure. And good guys (having good conditions) are looking for obedient girls first of all, even if they are not good-looking. [ from Crystal: accidentally, I know some background about the girl who gave this answer. She is very beautiful, made eyelid plastic surgery, but doesn’t have a boyfriend ]

Because Chinese men are not very successful!

Because Chinese women are all too strong.

The reality is that either guy is OK, but doesn’t have money, or he has money but not good-looking. It’s too rare to find a guy who has both appearance and money. So, it’s difficult.

Nowadays, there are too many playboys.

Very simple! Their high requirements only allow men to look at them.

If females are not picky, they definitely can find spouses. But who would want to marry a beggar? There are more male beggars in the street than females. Now, it’s normal that a girl with good education wants to find a guy who is a little bit better (than her). For example, a female with PhD wants to find a male with PhD. However, men always look for those girls who are beautiful and have a so-so education / qualification.
Moreover, girls who have good income and education always fail (to find an ideal partner), so they are left [become “leftovers”].

Requirements are very high.

Because of the current tendencies in the society. Now it’s popular to be like this – be together when happy, otherwise depart. Not a lot could get married. Some girls won’t give up, but some will hide themselves and wait for the persons they dreamed of.

I think that Chinese girls are capable and independent. So for successful women who put career first it’s more difficult to find suitable boyfriends or husbands. I also think that Chinese men are playboys. No matter whether they have money or not, they all have several girls which is the continuation of ancient Chinese custom of polygamy. Many people think that it’s normal for guys (to have few girls) because it means that they are successful and they are able to support them. But if women do the same, they are bad eggs. Most Chinese women are traditional and they don’t know that their husbands have extramarital affairs.

Some women, however, have seen men who have two or three women; they think that the marriage is not reliable. Those women who were hurt are afraid of meeting a heartless guy. So some women choose to be single.

It just proves that Chinese women are capable. Without relying on men, why shouldn’t they rely on themselves?

Rely on yourself and life can be better!

It’s easy to get thousands pieces of gold, but difficult to find a loving boyfriend.

Girls live in fantasies.

In China, how many guys can own car, house, money and also have a good appearance? Good man is often poor, so (girl) is afraid. And if education is not good, nobody wants. I am myself a single guy. Men only will cherish those women who accompany them to get through the hard times together.

Women, please don’t be too naive!

Men are so unreliable. Women should be very careful.

***

If you also want to ask Chinese girls a question – submit it by following this link.

One of many Chinese girls, Crystal Tao

  • http://wanderingamericantravelblog.blogspot.com/ WanderingAmerican

    I think that was my question. Yaaaaayyyy.

  • Ziccawei

    I seem to meet Chinese girls everywhere and all the time that do not have a boyfriend and seem to find it an impossible task to find one. These girls are very simple-minded and naive. They seem to think that by being zhai nu and staying at home every night watching youku is a good method to find a guy. How stupid!
    There are literally millions of girls that do this night after night.
    I think finding a guy on the internet is a very bad idea. A more organic method is better, introduced by friends or some guy they meet at a badminton club or a kung fu class (yes, weird examples, but you get the picture).
    Many Chinese girls live in a crazy fantasy land of ‘rich boyfriend/big house/car/shopping’ – I swear some girls that I talk to they believe that being a housewife means they will not have to work anymore – or do any kind of work at all.
    It is not funny at all. This is a serious social problem that is creating 1000′s of fresh shengnu every year. These girls will become disillusioned and frustrated with their lives.
    They need a healthy dose of reality.

  • Peter Phelps

    I have had a range of experiences in my attempts with the Chinese ladies. Many have lived so sheltered that when some serious questions are asked they do not really have any idea what to say in response. (One told me that I was rude to ask so many questions, another flat out said she had never really thought of them. The second one said that perhaps I was too complicated to think of so many things.) I can definitely say that there is a clash between the freedom they have earned from their educations and career paths and that of the traditional family. This is not really new to just Chinese girls, women here struggle with this all of the time (think Alley McBiel) while men may not have a biologic clock per say it is a concern for both partners. I personally am not sure I would be good as a Mr. Mom which seems to be one of the choices some of the successful Chinese ladies are asking of their men more often. For a traditional Chinese male I am sure that situation would cause a great loss of face and barely ever really be the path he would choose. Recently I have been debating about whether I could be the caretaker and the lady the bread winner. I am from a family where the male was the bread winner. The women want that in China, but sometimes it means there are a lot more things involved, like the burden of the parents and buying a home. Thus, the ladies also have to marry up for face and security.

  • GentleGiant

    Now that Prince William is married, the chances of the average Chinese Princess finding her ideal man have dropped by 50%.

    of course, if they dont like ginger it has dropped to zero. :roll:

  • http://mamie-life.blog.163.com Ally

    (Chinese men are playboys. No matter whether they have money or not, they all have several girls which is the continuation of ancient Chinese custom of polygamy. Many people think that it’s normal for guys (to have few girls) because it means that they are successful and they are able to support them. But if women do the same, they are bad eggs.)
    I also think Chinese men are like this. Chinese men really unreliable.Have difficulty he will spent together with you, when out of difficulties, achievement after will abandon his wife, looking for another woman “二奶,三奶…” This is very terrible. This shows how ruthless Chinese men.
    I have heard many such things, this reality are frightening .
    For me, I can not accept each other derailed. But fortunately, I can find good boyfriend James, the future the good husband . ;-)

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      Agree with Ally on this.
      As I wrote in the past in “Family and Money” post – I know few examples where once husband started earning good money, he would frequent KTVs and similar establishments.

      • http://mamie-life.blog.163.com Ally

        In fact the woman need most is oneself of husband love them for a lifetime, not abandon each other, is enough to.

      • keius

        Very true. Chinese women (in China) do not trust their husbands. The culture is accepting of the husbands unfaithful actions, as the social norm. It’s a big reason my wife chose to marry and leave the country. She had alot of suitors (looking for marriage), including a mid level gov’t official. She chose to work her ass off in the states instead of getting married in China and having the easy life… marriage, mahjong, parents taking care of kid, easy money, and a cheating husband with a mistress and/or whores….. and where she would just have to accept it and suck it up.

        On that note, i do have to say that although she does love money…who doesn’t btw? :mrgreen: , she doesn’t want us to ever get rich(or is afraid of that). She believes men are easily susceptible to temptation when the circumstances are right, and that if i somehow got rich, that i would most likely end up cheating on her :shock:
        Her views/beliefs are a product of her upbringing and her own experiences/insights. Still, it makes no sense since the reason she married me was because she believed i was a better man than that, and would not act like that.

    • http://wanderingamericantravelblog.blogspot.com/ WanderingAmerican

      =D

    • PurplePeopleEater

      Don’t blame the men for maximizing their ability to copulate with fertile young women. Blame the women who are willing to be an er-nai in exchange for his support and attention.

      As men age they gain power and wealth, things that women look for when choosing a mate. As women age, what do they gain that men look for?

      • Bryvakin

         pussy

    • A Chinese Female

      I mean no offence to either the participators in LLC forum or the regular commentators in this blogsite. But I feel genuinely curious and would like to take leave to ask this question, in particular, directed to Ally and perhaps other Chinese women who follow the posts here yet rarely voice their opinions:

      My impression is that English is noticeably not the first language of many Chinese women being discussed here. And for those who have left comments, their language skills, pardon me, are noticeably INADEQUATE, perhaps not up to the level to hold a decent conversation yet. But they actively seek out a foreign man as their potential life partners – a further sweeping generalization goes to bash Chinese guys for not being faithful, which seemingly justifies their “personal choice” to enter a relationship with someone who rarely speaks her language.

      Why?

      I find it hard to believe it’d be way more easier to lock down a soul mate in a person you can hardly relate to. The “love conquers all” rosy picture seldom comes true in real life. For a couple to keep a long-term, healthy relationship, it is essential that both parties able to connect and understand one another in a profound level. Language is a formidable barrier to overcome for developing this kind of connection and understanding, this is not to mention that a great deal of culture difference out there that dictates the speaking and behaviour patterns.

      Where this confidence comes from that a Chinese woman who speaks rudimentary English can claim, or perhaps genuinely believe, that her foreign guy who speaks basic Chinese is a good boyfriend and a would-be-good-husband? You sure?

      Don’t get me wrong. I’m not against inter-racial datings. I personally see casual datings an effective approach to get to know different types of persons, experience all kinds of novelties, be it cultural or sexual or other. However, the spiritual connection cannot be absent from a serious, committed relationship, let alone a successful marriage.

      I honestly don’t think a lot of Chinese women here – who lacking in sufficient language skills or exposures to western social and cultural realities – are able to understand where their significant ones come from when they express this desire for a foreign man. I probably hold those foreign men – who know little about China or barely speak Chinese yet are out to pursue a Chinese woman described above – in a even much lower regard.

      Again, I don’t mean to offend anyone. But this is the brutal truth that is unlikely be explained away by the sheer cultural attraction.

      With kind regards.

      • Yevgenij

        Are you sure you are female? You sound more like a jealous male.

        • A Chinese Female

          Hundred percent a Chinese female. I guess the generalization that Chinese men no reliable husband materials touched some raw nerves. My father and male relatives are the best men I’ve ever known in my life even though I’ve lived abroad for quite a few years. This is not to mention that a lot of my Chinese male friends from high schools are all well-bred, well-educated, living up to good morals, are commmitted in happy and faithful relationships/marriages.

          Again, I meant no offence. But this is a brutal truth. Quite a few Chinese women here seem coming from rather obscure backgrouds. Who to date and who to marry, to a large degree, is a personal choice, to which I do not dispute. But you know what, I take issues with those who like to tear their own men down to flatter foreigners or to use it to disguise their own suspecious motivations.

          As to those foreign men described in my previous posts. Well, not even another comment worthy.

          • Neil

            Sounds more like she has a real white-hate going on. It also sounds to me like she’s lived in the west for too long, and needs to return to China for a while. Maybe she should look beyond her privileged little circle of friends and family and see what life is like in the smaller cities of China, where single women work such long hours to help their families that they hardly have enough spare time to study English.

            No offense, but I do take offense. My wife is learning English, but she’s not there yet. Her brothers are the best men I have ever met, but unfortunately they are not the norm. How dare you question my value as a husband based on my skin tone or the language I speak, based solely on your biased life experiences?

            • A Chinese Female

              Neil, you are getting emotional. You were replying my comment yet using the third person referring to me as if you were talking to your fellow folks in this community. Well, very gentleman-like. A big thank-you still for taking this with grace – no words involved with vulgarity, after all.

              1. I’ve never specify the skin tone, I used “foreign”, that’s a generalization whatever their skin tones. If this makes me sound like a white-hater, then I’d like to boil this down to those who barely speak Chinese yet in a “relationship” with a Chinese who hardly speaks English. Nah, this is not questioning their language capabilities, but their communications if you happen to agree that effective communication is somehow a significant element in a serious relationship.

              2. I’ve met many, and befriended some, interracial couples, of which a high proportion are western males with Chinese females. I see them legitimate because they do look so. Neither party in these relationships had been on the outlook for specifically a Chinese woman or a Caucasian man before they met each other, then getting to know and relating to each other, and proceeding to a relationship. This is a natural flow.

              3. I’m more than willing to believe that your wife is a very good woman. If a person is good in nature actually has little to do with how much education she or he has received, that said, there might be exceptions that when such a person has to do things against a good nature and will of own in a damn harsh environment – say, smaller cities in China – to survive or get ahead.

              4. No matter how much Chinese you speak, if like you’ve implied, you have good values as a husband, you treat her well, respect her and take care of her, I then would be hundred percent support her decision to marry you – which is a rational choice. After all, China is a harsh place for women, less developed areas, more nasty bullshits that women have to put up with. She’s highly likely able to live a good life with you rather than a regular Chinese guy in her immediate surrounding.

              5. Questions then come your way. It’s more likely that I’d be convinced that you’ve met her, fully understood her and fell in love with her, if you at least speak decent Chinese. Let’s face it, we need to first speak with people, reading-face certainly is the last way to work out someone’s true character.

              6. If you speak little Chinese, it then begs question why you decide to marry someone with whom you can barely communicate with directly? Wouldn’t it be ideal to find someone sharing the same background with you, connected with you, to be more accurate, someone from your own society? What compelled you going all the way to a small city in China to look for a potential life partner?

              7. Intriguing, isn’t it? I don’t want to go further to infer the underlying calculations, they are gonna be ugly and hurtful, much worse than the generalizations that all Chinese men are infidel assholes and all foreign men in China are losers and sleazeballs. Both you and I know that it is not fair. Yet, there’s always a reason why people give flaks to a certain type of couples.

              With kind regards.

              • A Chinese Female

                A general finishing touch on our discussions – no offence intended towards anyone.

                Quite a few foreign guys who regularly leave comments here seem having (or once had) a Chinese sweetheart nestling in their arms. – Well, good for you and my best wishes.

                Some of the comments seem to me heavily tinged with the schadenfreude sentiments, good laugh and complacent derived from bashing, or joining their women’s bashing of Chinese men. – I take issues with you.

                I’m not saying Chinese men are perfect. They are not. I’ve my own issues with them – a lot of them are locked in the mold of a Chinese version of Chauvinist sentiments, simply having no guts to pursue a woman that is perceived to be doing better or earning better than he does. Sadly, I hadn’t dated even a single Chinese guy during my college years, according to a male Chinese friend, the reason that none of them had thought of asking me out is because I seemed like “too spicy, disobedient, not lady-like”, in a word, “too strongheaded”. This is precisely the reason why I’ve had so much flaks from my elder female relatives. Funny indeed. Another thing that I’ve to admit, that approaching the age of 26, I see the doubts emerging that if I will be settling down with a nice Chinese guy before hitting 30??? Hah, the prospect seems not even close to optimistic unless I’m willing to compromise what I want out of my life.

                But for one thing, I do look up to them, at least the majority I’ve encountered in my biased experiences, they are raised being taught to be a loyal husband, a consistent provider to take care of their women and families. There are even a few cases I can name that, despite being extremely successful businessmen, they manage to be extremely faithful and caring husbands and fathers.

                There are sharply increasing infidelity in modern Chinese marriages, more often than not, men are to blame for it. Whenever I saw a specific case, I did blame the strayed men instead of taking on ErNai or XiaoSan. It all comes down to values and morals. A good man with them committed in a marriage, I believe, is able to resist whatever temptations.

                People love bad stories which get better projected in the mass media. Why not? They make us reflect on our own lives and work towards better selfs. However, no way you can claim the majority of Chinese men are like this.

                To the Chinese women who think so, I feel sorry that you’ve never come across a good or even a decent Chinese guy as far.

                To the foreign men who believe so, well, I’d have been wary if I were you – if this is the sole reason that pushed your sweetheart into your arms – and I somehow feel sad for this because it probably says more about where she comes from rather than the majority of Chinese men.

                • http://www.magnoliaarts.com ZhuBaJie

                  ACF, thanks for your contributions to this site. I appreciate your coming and giving your point of view. I do need to say though that expressing a “low regard” for someone is indeed offensive to those people, and saying that you mean no offense doesn’t take that away.

                  Now on to more important things: I think to a large extent you and the “Chinese men bashers” agree on the facts but not on what you do with them. The chauvinistic attitudes you yourself admit to resenting are the basis of the generalized male-bashing that some (not all) contributors to this site express. And the infidelity that is also discussed here is, it seems to me, just an extension of that attitude; IMO, it’s an extension that shows a lack of morals, and of course there are many Chinese men who, even though they live within that male-dominated culture and maybe are fine with it, don’t break that trust.

                  Some of the Chinese-bashing is over the top, but that’s the nature of web forums: some people are more stringent than they would be in a face to face situation. I myself have several male Chinese friends and I hold them in great respect, they are kind and honorable people. I don’t know their relationships with their wives (all Chinese) on the inside. I have come to appreciate their lack of need for the macho manhood so common in some countries and see their manner as composed and self-confident without having to try to make others believe they’re “manly.”

                  So, in the end, I think the issues with Chinese men expressed here are issues you also see; you’re just more pre-disposed to understand it from inside the culture, and maybe give it a bit of a pass, and foreign men might be pre-disposed to dismiss it, denigrate it, and generalize about it. Much as they probably do to us… :roll:

                  We all primarily speak from our own experiences. Some can see the limitations therein, some have a harder time with that.

                  • Steve Schultz

                    I am very surprised of what I am reading now. Not yours btw. I thought I read a few articles of how Chinese men are beginning to change their ideals of what a mans roll and what a woman’s roll are. also showing to be more faithful. I would think men would eventually come to realization that there are few women to have in China as a lifetime partner. Why would the man want to risk the loss of a Good partner (women) to being with multiple women. or afraid to lose his masculinity staying home with the children? Of course without being a hypocrite, I would certainly want to bring some bread to the table even though she may be the largest bread winner. Should not matter as much though. Unless either party risk losing their individual identities.
                    BALANCE on ALL Things!
                    :-)

                • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

                  I agree with you that LoveLoveChina lately accents mainly negative aspects of Chinese society and Chinese people (both men and women).

                  I am sure, however, that majority of its readers truly love China and Chinese culture.

                • A Chinese Female

                  ZhuBaJie:

                  I appreciate your reply deeply, for a fair reasoning above playing that race card on me or accusing me of being a white-hater. However, I consider my first post was written in a rather composed manner, an honest reflection of my perspective. – I stand by every word I said.

                  Two further points:

                  1. It’s true in a web forum people tend to act over the top. What’s lacking in here is the counter-voice from a Chinese man against those sweeping generalizations imposed by the foreign men and in particular, a Chinese woman. I would not have given my stance out towards the two comments I quoted above – the perfection of contempt is silence. For her post though, I simply couldn’t stay silent.

                  2. There is not such a thing that I “give it a bit of a pass” to the issues in the male-dominated Chinese society. How could I? I live in it day and night, I fight with it day and night. There were moments when that profound disappointment crushing my confidence, that powerless feeling shadowing my faith, and, those constant self-doubts and questioning of my own choices. But one thing I pride myself for avoiding; I didn’t plan an artificial runaway to a foreign man. To those who stand by laughing at and dismissing Chinese men as a whole, I felt obligated to speak up.

                  • Steve Schultz

                    Eloquent!

              • http://wanderingamericantravelblog.blogspot.com/ WanderingAmerican

                You’re trying to analyze this too much. Sometimes things just happen. I originally had no intention of dating a Chinese girl. But as fate would have it, that’s what happened. I’m taking Mandarin classes right now and my girlfriend’s (Ally) spoken English has improved so much since we started dating it’s crazy. Culture and language barriers are only trouble if you let them be trouble.

                As for the “Chinese men are no good” feelings that some Chinese women have you must consider that you are very fortunate to have good men in your family. But just look at Chinese culture. It’s VERY male dominated. There’s a bunch of issues that I’m sure you’re aware of that might make some Chinese women consider looking for a foreigner. Or maybe they had bad experiences with Chinese men. People don’t just have these kinds of beliefs for no reason so before you attack those women maybe think about the reason why they feel the way they do. And finally, if someone wants to date a person from outside their country or culture it’s not for anyone else to judge.

              • A Chinese Female

                WanderingAmerican:

                I was not attacking any women. My question was directed to your girlfriend in an upfront manner.

                I was not judging a person who wants to date a person out of her/his own culture or country. I was expressing my opinions towards a person who purposefully seeks to date/marry another with whom she/he cannot communicate directly.

                If culture/language barriers will turn up as a huge obstacle, well, only time tells. Six-month or one year? Nah. Try ten years, twenty years. Would you take a note of our discussions today and keep it until then to see if you’ve managed to maintain your stance of today?

                Judgemental people are every where, they unfortunately are not one of the rare species in the States, either, it happens to be VERY white-dominated. Good luck and do protect your girl there.

                • http://encyclopediadramatica.com/China Elijah

                  ACF:

                  You seem to be extremely confused.

                  You say no offense but then look down on with contempt at mixed couples. I’d say that’s pretty much offensive to everyone on this site.

                  You say you’re not judging people, but then you say that these relationships won’t work. Your reasoning being that communication is a problem, I assume you’ve heard of books right? Some of them are textbooks, others are dictionaries others are made for learning a new language. I think (but I’m not sure of course) that those MIGHT in some small way be able to influence someone’s language level. Again, it’s just a wild guess, but hey! Who knows?

                  You say that you’re not attacking anyone, but then why would Wandering American have to protect his girl? You are attacking her and in a really shitty way. You’re basically saying that she’s a traitor to her own “people” because she has an American boyfriend and think extra low of her because her English isn’t fluent. You yourself say that the boyfriends in this case aren’t worthy of a comment but that silence is the best form of contempt. You do understand what the word attack means right? Or perhaps you accidentally put “not” in front of attack.

                  If your question was so upfront and directed at Ally then why didn’t you address here directly, instead of a passively-aggressive oblique manner? Why not just come out and say “Think you and your boyfriend are fools for being together and how dare you not find a good chinese guy.”

                  Lastly, trust me I feel pretty foolish having to point out your entire house of cards, but what were you expecting on and ENGLISH website about CHINESE GIRLS??? What’s the percentage of chinese guys that can read and write English? 0.01% maybe… Were you perhaps hoping for some lesbian couple (now I am…)? Seeing as how china is an extremely racist country towards Middle Easterners, Indians and Africans… There’s not going to be too many couples with them.

                  Really, all it takes a bit of logic and a functioning brain. I’ll assume your brain is able to function because you’re able to type, so I suppose it’s the logic that’s lacking…

                  What wonderful little fenqing you’ve been… Time to collect your wu mao.

                • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

                  It’s very sad that discussion here is heating up to this degree.
                  Personal attacks are not good without regard to which side is taken…

                  • http://encyclopediadramatica.com/China Elijah

                    Crystal, you read what she wrote right?

                    No matter how well written it was that doesn’t change the content.

                    Polishing a turd doesn’t make it valuable.

                    Maybe you should let her delete her posts, you’ve deleted other posts (mine included).

                    Most of the people on this site were pretty excited about this new feature and now on the very first post, the people who’ve been waiting for it (myself included) get shat on, but worse than that, our relationship goals, our relationship values, even the relationships themselves are derided.

                    No, anyone who wants to come at my wife is going to find me in the way.

                    Besides, last time I commented on Ally’s English because I didn’t understand her comment and guess what? I got shot down and told what I’d actually done.

                    This time, Ally is being told that she shouldn’t love who she wants because her English isn’t good enough. I don’t know about you, but that’s not criticism, that’s a completely disrespectful and hurtful insult.

                    Now it might not be my place to stick up for Ally, but what ACF said applies to my wife as well and it’s wrong.

                    I’ve said my piece and I can’t wait for the next “Ask chinese girls”

                    Cheers Crystal!

                  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

                    In most cases I won’t moderate comment based on its content (there are exceptions, of course, since certain things can’t be said no matter how nicely they are said).

                    In my opinion, it is usually the form of comment (and not its content) that causes conflicts.

                    I hope that we can agree to disagree, and do it in civilized manner.

              • Steve Schultz

                Of course, what if a man has a Hunger to know his future wife’s Language and Culture? I Too would want to be able to Thoroughly communicate With her. I would want to know every essence of her and be able to meet her needs as a person. More so as my wife. I also think the Path walked together in learning each others culture and language would be wonderful. and healthy for children to know both parents culture and language to better secure their anchoring roots. Another thing to think about? So many people can speak the same languages and be deep in their cultures yet NOT be able to communicate AT ALL!! I am not yelling btw. Haha!
                Hey kids! Tonight dad makes ji zhao (chicken feet) with dim sum and wonton soup. Tomorrow we Have Burgers and Hot dogs. haha! Maybe Pizza!
                Kids! Eat your fish! Ooops mama doesn’t like fish! haha! May have to skip that one Haha!
                Do you know what I mean?
                :-)

          • A Chinese Female

            Crystal:

            I appreciate your email and comment. I checked in your blog entries every so often – your pick-up of topics has manifested a remarkable astuteness – yet, I hadn’t felt like commenting or participating, for one, I personally can hardly relate to them. For two, the structure of discussions is of a huge asymmetry in terms of the gender, language and nationalities of the participators, more so in the forum. Foreign-English-speaking males have become the dominant voice here. Their Chinese women, however, are intriguingly mute and invisible other than in their men’s accounts. How these men, who pride themselves in the consciousness of gender equality and respect for Chinese women, have not even thought of encouraging their women to voice their opinions here since he’s successfully rescued her from the evil repressing male-dominated Chinese society?

            I might be wrong, but my impression is that the majority of Chinese women concerned here haven’t commanded this language tool yet. It stands to reason how they handle the communications with their foreign men, the majority of whom barely speak Chinese, either. Although the men can somehow make do in China, the situation for women would be way more severe if they eventually move to their boyfriends’/husbands’ countries, she’d be fundamentally depending on him if she cannot effectively communicate with her immediate surroundings, essentially, tied up to her foreign husband. Are they aware of this obvious power imbalance? This is the equality this honourable Chinese Nora Helmer and her noble knight have been pursuing??

            WanderingAmerican’s personal story is “as what Fate would have it”, I buy it, I’m not sure I have the same understanding towards those purposefully seek out a partner with whom they cannot communicate directly, which seem to me, outlandish. – I stand by every word I said in regard to this issue.

            As to those foreign-English-speaking males who regularly comment – no less than a few of their contributions are discriminate, hysterical, no-holds-barred, base-less, self-indulgent rants; devoid of intellectual, balanced, objective, sane judgements.

            Take two comments from the same person on the current entry:

            “I seem to meet Chinese girls everywhere and all the time that do not have a boyfriend and seem to find it an impossible task to find one. These girls are very simple-minded and naive. They seem to think that by being zhai nu and staying at home every night watching youku is a good method to find a guy. How stupid!”

            How sweeping a generalization is this? He seems having appointed himself to be the ultimate judge of behaviours of Chinese women as a whole. Is his credibility coming through throwing out trendy words in PinYin? I’d love to hear a Chinese woman’s point of view on his stance, where is she?

            “I met a Shanghainese guy who proudly told me of his visits to ktv bars and sex saunas. He went into great detail about it all. I asked him if his wife knew about him doing this (I strongly suspected that his wife knew, but maybe said nothing) and he replied: ‘My wife is very smart, she knows when to keep her mouth shut’. I am now beginning to think that many girls in large cities across China do not wish to get married because of guys like this.”

            What a turnabout! It’s not Chinese girls’ stupidity this time around, it’s Chinese guys’ infidelity. Not surprisingly some foreign husband happily echoed it. He met ONE Shanghainese guy as such and guess what, he then felt it was statistically sufficient to declare this is the very reason that holds MANY girls in large cities ACROSS China back from marriage. Thankfully, there was at least one sensible voice rising to offer a counter-view, from a western woman.

            This is the situation I’ve gotten out from this blog and forum – the romance stories/relationship tips aside, the expression of opinions are monopolized by the English-speaking foreign males. It falls on their integrity and intelligence to produce thought-provoking worthy comments, quite a few haven’t made it up to that high a standard, though.

            • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

              Foreign-English-speaking males have become the dominant voice here. Their Chinese women, however, are intriguingly mute and invisible other than in their men’s accounts.

              That’s true. And this is the main reason why I started the series “Ask Chinese Girls”. At least it can bring the voice of Chinese females in indirect way.

            • 3jay

              @ A Chinese Female:

              I agree with quite a few of the points you raised, especially regarding language barriers. I, too, am a non-believer when it comes to cross-linguistic relationships that hinge on no more than a couple of basic “我爱你……我也爱你”-style conversations. As someone who strives to be acutely aware of linguistic subtleties in speech and writing, I’ve always found it a bit difficult to relate to a person romantically when I couldn’t quite express myself using finer nuances.

              Nevertheless, some people clearly have mastered a universal form of Body Language that transcends all boundaries, it would seem, without the need to discuss and talk and joke and enjoy that which makes up the essence of humanness: intelligent and refined conversation. :P Not everyone has the need for that; some take pleasure in staring bug-eyed into one another’s eyeballs, or laughing inanely when language is unavailable to crack real jokes. I’m not one of those people, however, and I too look in wonder at those who are able to have a relationship with someone without resorting to actual speech.

              By the way, your writing style is very appealing and easy-on-the-mind. Kudos for that, and thanks for the contributions.

        • sarah

          :shock: she doesn’t sound jeolous at all.She sounds like someone that undertands something weird that is going on and doesn’t like it. She sounds angry and frustrated at how Chinese women are seen as idiotic and senseless.

          • ziccawei

            Then they should stop leading idiotic and senseless lives. I am not frustrated that Chinese women do this, but carrying the victim torch only garners so much sympathy.

      • Bored in Melbourne

        Hello, I’ve read your comments. Generally they come across as well thought and balanced. More so then mine a lot of the time, although I must admit I often post on this site immediately before going to sleep so my grammar and spelling is next to sleepy, and my thought process is already asleep. Anyway no more excuses.

        I tend to agree with your premise. I wonder myself about how many relationships are based. Initially my first romantic feeling with a Chinese girl was held back from my side, deliberately because of the mismatch in culture and communication. However she then did all she could to teach me about herself and her culture and as she was living in Australia already she was quickly getting up to speed on where I was coming from.

        Over some years I have dated a few different Chinese women, exclusively living here. For the deliberate reason that I know I am not attractive to them as a Visa or anything beyond just myself, and to me they are a person I meet in the society we are likely to share long term, being that they have decided to live here also.

        Some years have passed and I have a reasonable grasp on Chinese culture and although my Mandarin get worse from lack of practice I can communicate in her language as well. With more effort and probably more time in a Mandarin rich environment I am sure I can become fluent and I think that is essential. Expressing yourself with less limitation is so important to a real deep connection I don’t see life working without it in terms of a lifetime partnership.

        My observation from experience is that a mix culture relationship is always harder, often more rewarding, but if you get a good match is is like the generic description of synergy where 1+1 does equal 3, the sum of the 2 together can be greater. However in order to get that I think that both need to go all the way into the other. What I mean by that is that both partners need to be willing and do go fully into the culture and language of the other. So I need to really understand Chinese and she needs to really understand English and my culture, so we appreciate and can perceive the basis of each other.

        In terms of Chinese men, I have encountered many immature and stupid males everywhere but China has no shortage of jerks and the culture of corruption does not help.
        However, I know many who are good men. My young housemate is a great example, mature beyond his years, he is loyal and a hard working top student, even away from his home language and culture. He is a credit to the Chinese hard work and study ethos and will be a great husband to a lucky woman in the future. He is a tall and handsome guy from a good family in Chongqing but sorry he is a little young for you otherwise you might like to meet him someday. I am sure there are millions more like him in China. But unfortunately as you point out the good ones fly under the radar and the corrupt officials and unfaithful masses having unprotected sex with KTV girls are all too easy to spot.

        Hopefully a proud woman like yourself can help clean up the mess that China’s society finds itself in though, because actions bring rewards, not our thoughts posted on Crystal’s excellent web forum

      • http://mamie-life.blog.163.com Ally

        A Chinese Female :
        Chinese men are playboy is true the fact that 90 percent of the Chinese are so. I’m not deliberately degrade Chinese men and noble foreigners. I’m a native Chinese, my friends, is when the married men’s XiaoSan, success make the man and his wife divorce. If all Chinese man abide promise, how scared foreigners lashed out at them? What you see is probably a small fraction of the good man, but can represent all men of China are good? Foreigners have good and bad, the question is whether you have luck finding a good man. Culture and language is really for a Chinese and foreigners dating obstacles. But I am still young, learning another country’s culture is not difficult. This is by mutually inclusive, isn’t the Chinese men and Chinese women dating, they both no weaknesses? Don’t need mutual tolerance. No one in the world is perfect. I admit that my English is very poor, my boyfriend also don’t understand mandarin, which can represent my boyfriend is a bad man? We are not really in love? We are very hard study each other’s language. You said mother tongue is how to get it? You are learning through get it. Everyone is through the study to get its language. And I myself still have some basic English, we are not blind and deaf unable to communicate .
        I also hope you can find Chinese good man.

        • A Chinese Female

          Hi Ally,

          I appreciate your response. Prior to it, I‘d written to Crystal requesting her to delete all my posts as far. She asked for a reason; I didn’t plan to tell the truth but a polite pretext. Your reply somehow changed my mind, it provided a good opportunity to strike a real conversation that I’d love to make happen.

          You stated that immoral Chinese men constitute a landsliding majority of 90%, and insisted it is a fact, which is actually a very weak, statistically-challenged argument that I’d have overridden in a snap. Nonetheless it makes little sense doing so as after all none of us able to reckon an exact number. Yeah, we primarily speak from our own experiences. You’ve given your observations, then hopefully you’d find my accounts somehow informative in bringing a new perspective.

          My father and male relatives, to a large degree, have shaped my perception of Chinese men as a whole. Some of them are career-oriented and may seen as “achievers” in this male-dominated society; others, interestingly enough, may fall into the category of typical “Shanghainese small men” in terms of helping with chores, being attentive to their wives/girlfriends’ needs and willing to go great lengths to keep their women happy. None of them ever cheated and all respect their women. I don’t think this is only a superficial thing as if in a commercial. Because the happiness and affection that radiate through these couples are just impossible to be misinterpreted. Even my younger cousin – tall, sporty and good-looking thus popular with girls – seems mature enough to honour this tradition. He’s gotten hit on by girls every so often, his response is to make it plainly clear that he’s attached already. I once poked fun at him for being too normal at too young an age and asked wouldn’t it be fun to date around? “What’s so fun to play around? Do you want a man like that?” – his sharp retort. “Cool, then what if you feel liking someone else later?” “I break up first then start a new relationship, the lowest thing is to have another on the side and feeling clever about it, sub-human.”

          They, of course, are my family that you may think I’ve pictured them too good with heavy bias. There is actually no shortage of more examples. I got to know a couple at my parents’ age back in high school. The husband went to Australia in the early 90′s and spent a decade there getting a cab agency business out from nothing. He later returned to have the wife and the son move there together. The hardship this couple endured during this decade, though, was immense. He returned merely once every year due to the financial constraints. She stayed in Shanghai working, and raising their son alone. She’s a gorgeous woman, even in her current age. She had rejected many suitors throughout those years. Many times these so-called courtships presented themselves as lures of money or stark harassment. She had no idea how her man was doing at another end of the earth, there was not a certainty that he’d succeed and return, either. Based solely around the trust she had with him, she stood her grounds, remained loyal, waiting. And he, indeed did not let her down. The affection and tenderness he showed towards her, was something that struck me deep to my heart. I failed to appreciate their bonding of love, trust and faith in each other at the age of 16. Now, I think that’s something I’d die for.

          You may argue this is only a small fraction of good Chinese men. I, too, am fully aware that we do not live in a fairy tale. I heard the same kind of stories you’ve told. The most outrageous case is a fortyish parvenu who leaves his wife back home in Zhejiang, concurrently having three mistresses in Shanghai. In my years overseas, I once ran into a Chinese guy who took pleasure flirting around regardless of the fact that he’s married. I heard some nasty stories amongst young Chinese couples such as who’s using/dumping who for money/sex/connection whatsoever in the name of a relationship. I was saddened but soon would lighten up. For every one such case, I thought, I’d be able to find three or four more counter-case. When I look around, and see my friends committed in a relationship and loyal to their partner even they are half the globe apart. Many are just fresh graduates with future unsettled, none of us all has been living a comfortable, leisure, stable life. But their commitments to each other, and their determination to work hard for building a bright life together, impressed me, even though I’d not been fortunate to experience this deep a connection as far. One guy friend I really like is doing a Master programme and hopeful to pursue a career in the academia. His girl friend is in Shanghai on a stable yet modest-paying job. Neither side of their parents approve their relationship for she’s from a modest family background and he’s not gotten his future shaped yet. They stand their grounds with firmness, however. My friend, in his years away from home, is loyal to her and behind his efforts to establish himself, is the will that to be with her and to gain the approval from both sides of the parents.

          These are lengthy stories but my point is very simple – there are hopeless Chinese men rotten to the core. There are good Chinese men worth our pride. I categorily reject the ratio of 9:1. But I do not know exactly how many of these two types are out there. My humble wish is we do not dismiss them as a whole, we give the credits where they are due, and in such a thread, we have at least one voice to represent the good ones of our fellow countrymen.

          I guess you probably would have agreed with me on the above if I’d raised my points in a moderate manner. Well, actually I’d never planned to leave a single word as I said I didn’t feel related and didn’t want myself associated with it. I was following an article on the different speaking patterns so that I could pay attention to mine in the workplace. The reason that I somehow took your comment personal and launched what you probably saw as an “attack” to defend the Chinese men in general, is that I just had a fight with my father and felt extremely bad for the harsh words I blurted out to him. – I was not defending the Chinese men actually, but to pick up a debate to make me feel better as if I were defending my father, fiercely

          Nevertheless, the feelings towards the foreign men and Chinese women concerned here was indeed an honest reflection of my perspective. The foreign-English-speaking males’ dominance in this blog also resonated – actually appeared rather distasteful to me. You may presume that I have issues with interracial relationships or I dislike foreign men. Well, if so, I’d not have dated foreign men myself. Also, I cannot agree enough that there are good and bad men in every society, and yeah, it you have the fortune to win the heart of a good man, then nothing could ever compare. One thing I did like about your message is the sheer confidence, the confidence of your choice of a good foreign men, the confidence to pick up the language, to fit in the culture, the confidence that you are in love. However, I gotta say, that’s a damn heck long way to go. For the past years I’ve been shuffling between three countries, with time, there emerge identity issues that I become increasingly aware of. I’m foremost a female, sometimes a Chinese, other occasions an Asian, and of course there are times that I’m a Chinese female or an Asian female. I bumped into stereotypes and presumptions once in a while. Honestly, they are not a puff of breeze but a daily encounter that requiring a thorough self-reflection and a firm self-assurance to deal with. These are the stereotypes, usually more unpleasant ones than pleasant ones, may come your way later if you do go down the path you’ve outlined right now, probably until then, you would realize that my concerns raised in my previous comments did have some legitimacy in them.

          All that being said, the last thing I do need to say, is I did not feel quite good about calling your name in the first post, neither did I feel proud of the cynical tone all over my reply to Neil. If previously I had no idea what’s proper to say generally regarding the regular commentators and readers of this blog, some of the comments I’ve read did make me think and offer a new angle to view the world.

          First, the hardcore-extreme-hateful-insane-sexist-racist versus normal human beings (me inclusive) who’re able to carry out fair reasoning and intelligent conversations – ratio is 1:9. Life is just too short to argue with that sole exception.

          Second, I still don’t quite get the idea to pledge in a relationship with someone I cannot talk to. But there is never a shortage of things that I’m clueless about. I used to believe a fancy education and a glamours job secure 85% of happiness. Doh, such a crap. Turned out the fortunate to be with someone you love and loves you in return has nothing to compare. People have their own ways to express love and affection. So keep going and treat what I said as something that you can testify your love and trust against. I wish you best of luck and hopefully in years you can declare – we’ve lived a good life together which dismisses everything that vicious woman had said.

          So Ally, I take your leave and wish you all the best.

          Crystal, if you happen to have the patience to finish all this thing. I wanted to thank you again for your kind reply and wish you best of the luck for everything, too. Yeah, I think it does no harm to leave those comments as they are, and hopefully, your readers will get some good impressions of Chinese men from them.

          Bye.

          Your fellow Chinese woman.

          • ziccawei

            Oh your dad and other male family members are good guys?

            ok so I guess that clears it all up then.

            Thanks for your highly informative and enlightening post. I am sure I speak for everyone when I say that my mind has been well and truly adjusted by your greater knowledge of all things Chinese.

            Well done!

            :cool:

          • Django

            You offer a perspective that many people on this site forget. Yes there are a lot of good men in China, and their stories get drowned out by the bad ones. I worked in a Chinese company for years and know a lot of great guys that are good husbands. I also know the parents of my wife and friends and the majority of them are honorable. I think that the older generation had to go through more hardship (great leap forward, cultural revolution, etc) and now they can enjoy the simple things and appreciate their relationships with their wives. With the younger generation they are making serious money, some that they could never dream of when they were younger. With this new status comes temptation. Some men fall victim to it and some don’t.

            This is no different anywhere else in the world. Here in the US I would never encourage anyone to date a doctor if fidelity is something they require. From experience I would say that the majority of doctors here cheat. In fact I would be surprised to find a doctor that didn’t. I’ve known too many that I find this the norm. I know I can’t be right saying all doctors cheat but coming off experience I’m pretty confident in stating it. There has to be thousands of doctors that are good husbands here, its just I haven’t heard their stories and even if I did I might dismiss them as being “one of a kind”. I know that can’t be the case for everyone but until I hear more of these or meet doctors like this it’ll continue to be the norm for me. After working in China for years I know a lot of good men and I think it is ridiculous to say 90% are cheaters.

            I hope you continue to post here. You offer a valuable counter-view to the norm here. Crystal has done a great job posting interesting topics and she is good at moderating the posts when people get nasty. I do hope we can hear more from the perspective of Chinese women here.

        • namenotgiven

          Thank you for the wonderful post. It was insightful, heartfelt, and meaningful. In essence, I have learned something of value from you. Please keep being the wonderful, intelligent, insightful, young woman you are.

    • Pasha

      you can’t say that all Chinese men are playboy but its men instinct all over the world. I believe Chinese girls are very innocent & easily adore men.

  • ziccawei

    I met a Shanghainese guy who proudly told me of his visits to ktv bars and sex saunas. He went into great detail about it all. I asked him if his wife knew about him doing this (I strongly suspected that his wife knew, but maybe said nothing) and he replied: ‘My wife is very smart, she knows when to keep her mouth shut’.

    I am now beginning to think that many girls in large cities across China do not wish to get married because of guys like this.

    • sarah

      Ziccawei, I think that kind of behavior exists every part of the world. However, Asian family values ( I do not say it is right or wrong) are different than the west( as you already know well :grin:) They normally thinks of their children and prefer to have families, than divorce. Although this thought seems to change drastically nowdays. So I really can’t say it is a reason they don’t want to get married because of all the jokers you mentioned. I sincerely agree to what you said-meeting thru friends and in person is a way to go. I also thinks that these young women have inrealistic expectation of lives and marriage. Also meeting a good man and mgetting married is just a start. To be successful in marriage is a different story. Actually it is ajust a beginning of the real journey. According to research, romance fades in 2 years after getting married. After that it is a commitment to keep love alive and relationship strong. just want to share with Ally and crystal since they are lucky to find good men to marry them..Good luck Ladies.

      • ziccawei

        I disagree, I don’t think that kind of behaviour exists all over the world. There is not the availability of ktv bars, sex saunas, etc in England for example, well maybe a very few sex saunas, but not to the level that exists in China. China has a huge amount of prostitution. It seems to me that many married Chinese women ignore the fact that their husbands have sex with hookers or with secretaries/sales assistants/office girls etc. In England I would say that most women would not ignore it. They would see it as a huge display of lack of trust and respect and, believe me, fireworks would go off big time.
        Chinese culture allows men to get away with this as, for the most part, China is a sexist society.
        And by arguing that it goes on in other countries kind of implies that it’s ok – ‘Well, they do it in Russia/America/India/Iceland…..’ It’s not ok, simple as that.
        I’m not married but I do regard it as a symbol of trust and commitment, something that many Chinese guys find difficult to deal with.
        I have said this before but I think the reason so many girls are not getting married is because they look around at their other female family members lives and think screw that for a life. Basically many Chinese women are the hired help. They look after the house and the child while the husband goes to work, comes home and plays computer games. I am not in the least bit surprised that many Chinese girls do not want to be a part of that life.
        I think the reason that many Chinese girls are single speaks volumes for the lack of real men in China and not so much about the women themselves.

        • JY

          Reason why you don’t see more of that behavior in England(or most Western countries) is because it’s kept more discreet. Disloyalty has always been a growing problem in the modern Western world and men are trying to hide it more and more with greater results.

          • Kevin

            That wasn’t what Ziccawei was saying though. The difference isn’t “European/American men don’t cheat”, it’s “European/American women don’t turn a blind eye to their husbands cheating”.

            Obviously there are exceptions everywhere, but in general I think he’s absolutely right.

          • sarah

            JY, I agree. They cheat-men or women everywhere cheat,not just in China. Some of them go cheat in China! You may be surprised that some successful couples we see also experienced infidelity .I don’t think ones who turn their blind eye exist only in China either. Ziccawei, I agree that it is obvious in China,but I don’t believe that is a reason. I believe it may come from One chilid policy, change in how women see their self worth, and inrealistic expectation of ” waiting for a Prince.”

            • ziccawei

              I agree with this too, Sarah. Shanghai is full of young women like this. I know a handful of young women (can hardly call them ‘girls’ anymore when they are approaching their mid-30′s) who still believe they are catch-of-the-year and hotness personified.

              I think for these girls they may realise that they need to lower their expectations but may do so too late. These poor women have such a high opinion of themselves while also having a high sense of expecting everything to be given to them on a plate.

              What will become of them? They can hardly look after themselves let alone anyone else.
              Their future looks pretty grim to me.

              • Sarah

                Ziccewei,I wonder too when women will stop calling themselves “girls”:) To me, when I became over 21 years old, I do not like anyone to call me “girl” anymore. Is it because they want to feel young or afraid to become women?

                • ziccawei

                  They are a girl until they get married, then they become a woman. So I guess all these mid-thirties shengnu females are still ‘girls’.
                  I suppose it’s fairly accurate to call them girls, given the way they behave.

  • SB

    Though China may have a surplus of men, this isn’t the case in the cities which in many cases actually have a surplus of women (migrant workers in the cities tend to be disproportionately female as men are more likely to stay in the boonies working the family farm). Most remotely ambition Chinese women aren’t going to move to the countryside to marry the uneducated peasants who stay there. As for the men in the cities, others have addressed their rampant cheating. My girlfriend has had newly married male friends tell her that they were already expecting to cheat on their wives in the future. Though not occurring in China, the NY Times had an interesting article about what happens socially when women outnumber men (in this case as US colleges and universities). http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html

  • Bored in Melbourne

    I think that there is a large degree of societal immaturity in China at the current time. With such massive and rapid change going on it is just not possible for the society to adapt at the same speed. The result is an overwhelming number of options and choices presented to everyone in terms of almost everything. So when you see the options are available to use your cute bum as a pathway out of the peasant life your parents bore you into, the road lead you into more and more choice, everyone is doing it, so I must be too old fashioned if I ignore the choices. For the men they aspire to wealth while in some way perhaps still have a foot in the old thinking where they have the power the choices the upper hand. But they might not have the upper hand at all… When everyone is sure they can get more and better and sexier, no one want to make a choice at all in case the newer shinier model is released just after they bought the old newer shinier model…

    I don’t see it changing any time soon. Both sides are almost equally to blame. It may be the minority of women using there body to get what they want, and it may be the minority of men sleeping with everything the moves, but with such a massive popular the numbers soon add up and the trend is going the wrong way.

    For the girl they can opt out if possible and find a man from outside the ‘system’ perhaps a foreigner? But for the men they are almost trapped in the nightmare of their own dreams, because almost no other woman would put up with the crap, after all if your own culture does not expect you to turn a blind eye to being treated as a shiny accessory until the 2nd one joins the team, why would you? Unless there is a significant compensation, or you have not other option, you would simply walk away.

  • ziccawei

    Good stuff BiM.

    Someone mentioned on this site about ‘Choice Addiction’. It is stripping the social fabric apart in this country. Look at the fights going on over iPads – that sums it up to me, people getting hurt over a stupid machine that people use to play a game about angry birds. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

    So many poor girls in big cities across China now that must wonder what the hell has happened to them. I recently made a post about the age 30 being a big deal in China to Chinese girls, Crys replied and said it is ‘frightening’.

    Now think of all these many many single Chinese girls that are 30 or above, single and stuck in some boring dead end job. Finding Mr Right for them is an impossibility not reality.

    This is a serious situation in China and in about 5 years or so there will be a ‘lost’ generation of young women – all single with no children. There will be millions of them.

  • sarah

    Ziccawei, I have read and heard about this issue in China for a while. You got me to become more interested. I will research and study more on this. You seem to have direct knowledge about this. How long have you lived there?

  • ziccawei

    I have knowledge of it from girls I talk to, girls I meet in work and girls I have had relationships with. I am still trying to understand the shifts that have happened in Modern Chinese society to cause these things to happen to Chinese girls.

    Not sure what research you want to do Sarah? Are you a writer? I think the whole concept of Shengnu and Chinese women being ‘dead in the water’ at 30 years is just fascinating to me. It is a social phenomenon the likes the world may have never seen before.

    Ask Crys for my email address – she has it.

    :cool:

  • sarah

    I’m not a writer by profession. I’m in Economics and Finance field. I am interested in how modern Asian women’s value has drastically shifted and what has caused it. We use to blame the western for influence from media and such. This is for my own interest,but who knows.thank you.

  • Guy

    This is an old problem with advancing societies. It might be new to China but not to the Western World. Once any society advances, both gender will generally ask and desire for more qualities in a partner.

    Chinese girls are probably a bit more realistic thus finding a good candidate these days will not be easy. The successful guy on the other hand will have the vast ocean of choices to choose from. Men also unlike women from Asia generally have a wider range of options in the age department.

    This problem with women having a more difficult time of finding a mate will only get worse with time. In the West, there are plenty of single woman over 30 who have never been married. Many are still holding on to hope of finding the right man.

  • ziccawei

    Chinese girls are a bit more realistic? I don’t think so. The qualities that Chinese girls desire in a partner are unbelievable. Totally unrealistic.

    The difference in the West is that women over 30 are considered normal human beings if they are still single. But in China, if a woman is 30 or over and single people around her will think there is something wrong with her.

    • Guy

      LOL…Yes you are correct. Unrealistic….

    • ulickmcgee

      There probably IS something wrong with her. In my experience these women are 1. ugly but have a great career or 2. nuts. The successful ones won’t settle for a guy who earns less than them or is less educated but guys who are in their league financially can have their pick of hot 22-year olds. Why would they choose an ugly 28 year old? By the way, women judging men on their careers is as valid as men judging women on their looks. Both are hard-wired in the human brain. Men treat women as sex objects, women treat men as success objects.

      The difference is that men become more sexually attractive as they age so that a 10-year age gap appears to be the most attractive to women as long as the man has high status. Women are attracted to signs of high status and men are attracted to signs of high fertility. A 30-year-old is significantly less fertile than a 20-year old. A 35 year old is almost barren and most 40-year old women can only have a first baby using the turkey baster approach. A 30-year-old man has vastly higher status than a 20-year old, and so on.

      If ugly career girls refuse to listen to traditional wisdom and don’t get a man to invest in them during their peak fertility, they will have trouble ever finding a man.

      Contrary to popular belief, it is women who commit to relationships. Men present themselves, the women pick and choose. When a woman chooses a man, she commits to him. He then invests in her. The career girls are not committing to suitable men when they have peak value on the sexual market place. Every year that goes by they become less valuable.

      As for the crazy girls, only a very masculine man can handle them and there are not enough of those to go around, which is a pity because they are dynamite in the sack.

  • ziccawei

    To ‘A Chinese Female’.

    Wow, you seem to have had your arse spanked by this forum.

    :mrgreen:

    Firstly, I think this forum was started for the purpose of foreign guys to discuss feelings about Chinese women. So saying that there is a lack of female voices here is like saying ‘where’s all the black guys at?’ in a white dyke college reunion party. It’s mostly for guys to vent I think. You’ve found it and ranted – at great length – about guys being on a forum for guys.

    You picked out two of MY lines (big kiss, by the way) and I was trying to pick out anecdotal examples to support what I was thinking at the time. Just because I cite one example doesn’t mean there’s only one example. Doesn’t make what I say true or false either, just what I think.

    And for the record – I DO think MOST Chinese girls are stupid in the way they sit at home like dumb tv-watching retarded 12-year-olds waiting for their house-owning Mr Perfect to come knocking at their door. Stupidest thing I’ve ever seen!

    And I do think many Chinese married guys in China have sex with ktv girls or barbershop whores – unprotected sex too most of the time – WHY? Because for the most part they have a great lack of respect for their wives who, ironically, are sat at home watching tv like a retarded 12-year-old.

    I guess you don’t see the things I see in China, I guess you don’t hear the things I hear (maybe this is part of China’s 5000000 years of history ‘see problem, put head in sand’) because I see these as social issues that need to be changed.

    Chinese men – todays Chinese men if middle class – need to be responsible and act like husbands and fathers not philandering whore mongerers and the unmarried girls need to stop watching Korean soap opera wank and regarding that as real life.

    See ya sweet cheeks…

    :cool:

    • http://hongkonggirltalk.com/ Jin @ HKGirlTalk

      I think I have to agree with you.

      I’ve heard tons of story about married Chinese guys cheating on their wife while their wife knowing that but never speaks a word. Because the reason why the wife marry to the Chinese husband is that he has got the financial ability to look after her (survival instinct) so that she can support her own family in turn. That’s why she has to be obedient and retarded in front of the husband.

      I mean, I would rather prefer those Chinese guys being a playboy before he gets married than his having sex with random and dirty (and young) hookers after marriage. Sad, sad, sad.

      I wonder why the Chinese society is like this.

      • Bored in Melbourne

        Jin I am not sure if the concept that they used to refer to as ‘sowing the wild oats’ actually works. Do men actually enjoy sleeping around and then all of a sudden stop when they are ready to marry?

        I tend to think not, they might slow down but after a time the wife is less of the sexy vixen she was and (because in many societies, especially China a man can get away with being ugly as long as he has a pretty financial status) regardless of the chances they he is also nothing special, he has easy access to extramarital sex. To me it is just a part of the lack of social maturity. Too many easy choices. In Psychology we refer to the concept of impulse control and it is generally accepted that some people have poor impulse control, but also that a child had almost none.

        What does that mean? In essence, that they are acting like spoilt children in a lolly shop. The real answer is for the supply to be taken away. So the females need to develop enough self respect to know they can have a good life without a sugar daddy and choose a better partner.

        • http://hongkonggirltalk.com/ Jin @ HKGirlTalk

          I don’t think Chinese guys sleep around before they get married. Usually girls love guys more if guys have more financial strength. So typically guys become rich in proportion to their age, the richer they get, the older they are, so even though they have a wife already, other girls will find them more attractive (because of the money) so they cheat on their wife after marriage. When Chinese guys are young, they are not rich enough to sleep around.

          • Bored in Melbourne

            Although you give a simplistic observation it is essentially correct and in itself it is the answer to the problem, if you are lusting after superficial things, you yourself will in turn become and be treated superficially. The girls chasing after the married men have no more morals than the men themself, in the end the first wife always retained more power in the household than the concubines.

            If they girl wants money there is always the option of earning it

          • ziccawei

            In China, so much faith and dependence is put on money that it becomes the over-riding factor to everything in peoples lives. Hence you have Chinese children equating ‘being rich’ with ‘happiness’. Chinese customs such as giving hong bao don’t help to remove this kind of thinking.
            Young Chinese women talk about money often and if a guy is rich then he is a good catch. Sure this happens in all countries but in China it’s to the power of 10.
            Hence on stupid dating tv shows we hear remarks like ‘I’d rather cry in a BMW’ etc etc.
            Money is GOD in China.
            And as Jin states above, if a middle-aged guy has money he can literally hire sex-friends in the form of ‘er nai’ or just pay for sex workers and ktv girls to screw him. This is very much the way of doing things and the way of modern life in China. To say it is not is blind and stupid.
            Chinese young women, I find, often seem to lack any kind of self-respect as they put themselves in the position of ‘vessel’ for rich men. Not all Chinese young women, of course, but those that do seem to have zero shame in their actions and in fact often regard themselves as ‘clever’ for doing it.
            As choices are thrown at Chinese faces in the year 2011, I think many young women see their face and bodies as a method of getting rich quick. I think fewer western women would have the same feeling.
            Chinese women in this respect seem to have very little self respect.

            • sarah

              You really have strong negative thoughts about young Chinese women. Are you sure you are in the right place(or blog)?

              • ziccawei

                I don’t have just strong negative views about young Chinese women – I have strong negative views about everyone. Start a thread about middle-aged Australian golfers and I’ll jump all over it Sarah.

                But in order to comment properly on your statement, I think that young Chinese womens lives are hideously out of synch with Chinese mens lives. China is the only country in the world where female suicides outnumber male suicides. What does that say to you?

                To me it means their lives must be pretty shitty and that they lack the proper voice in order to communicate effectively if their lives are going downhill. Chinese culture prevents them (females) from doing that, while at the same time women do nothing to actually help themselves. They seem to pander to the male-centric attitudes of China a lot of the time.
                It’s difficult for me to be sympathetic.

                • http://hongkonggirltalk.com/ Jin @ HKGirlTalk

                  The fact that money overrides everything in China has ruined many marriages. If only Chinese women (and citizens in general) understand that there are more meaningful and beautiful things to be cherished in life, they will gain more self-respect and be happier even though the woman might not get the richest guy in the world.

                  And what is being rich anyway? Women’s income increases with the years of experience in their jobs, once they think they find a fairly rich guy, as they themselves earn more, they will rise their standard and look for a even richer one. I feel disappointed that how much time they spend on the process of looking for a “perfect husband” instead of enjoying the relationship itself. What’s the point of continuously looking with tasting it?

                  You might think that I’m biased, but I think everyone is biased and there is nothing wrong being biased. If everyone’s opinion is the same I would hardly see any progression in the humanity and economy.

            • sfphoto

              Great blog…just to add some historical context, however, bear in mind that China went through three decades of extreme poverty under Mao’s rule…it was only after Deng’s reforms in the 80s that the economic “miracle” of the last three decades took place in the coastal cities. That is say…the mindset of the mainlanders in cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, etc. is to get rich quick… and then “enjoy” life as much as possible. So what you have is this “abnormal” phenomenon of “money worship” and all the things that that term implies — hedonism, materialism, consumerism — to the nth degree imaginable.

              Although I agree with most of the observations of the people contributing to this blog regarding the almost “infantile” behaviour of the nouveau riche in the coastal cities, I think a lot of it can be attributed to the pent-up desires, wants and passions of a long-repressed population — Mao worship replaced by Money worship. It is in the nature of societies that have gone through such massive, monumental, mind-boggling transformation to exhibit a kind of euphoria. Heck, the U.S. went through the same process — from the Pastor’s Age to the Gilded Cage.

              Going back to the topic of this blog — why Chinese women over the age of 30 find it hard to find a mate — can be understood better with such a historical context. As it turns out, mating — that is finding a suitable spouse — is a highly competitive game. This is true in all societies at all times — from the Stone Age to the Digital Age — that men seek youth and beauty in women and women seek wealth and status from men. In a way, these women — the so-called shengnu women — are a victim of their success. Men don’t seek wealth and staus from women unless they are gigolos; it’s the other way around. Hugh Hefner doesn’t seek women over the age of 30 with wealth and status; he goes after young women in their 20s to be his playmates.

              Nothing new here…just the same old game…but with a different cast of characters…in a strange, foreign and “exotic” land…called the People’s Republic of Cunt…

      • Soldano

        I agree with both of you.
        About why the Chinese Society is like that, it might be a “face” thing.
        Chinese peopl never adress embarrassing issues, they just keep avoiding them.

  • sarah

    Infidelity is everywhere, not just in China. You may be surprised that some of the successful marriage that you may see involve infidelity at one point.

  • Guy

    I heard a saying from a Chinese girl many years ago.

    ” She said if you want a loyal husband in China, find one
    that is poor ”

    Now, how many Chinese girls would take that advice versus.

  • Django

    I know several gorgeous Chinese women that have a very hard time dating. They are quite successful professionally & I think it intimidates a number of guys. Of course the ones that do approach them are married and make no qualms to hide it. They are now over 30 and although they are hopeful they seem to have given up finding a decent guy.

    • http://hongkonggirltalk.com/ Jin @ HKGirlTalk

      It’s a traditional Chinese thinkings that kill those Chinese women. Women were considered to be responsible for housework but not actual work that earns a living so Chinese men want women to be submissive. Now more women want to make their own voice in the modern society but it seems that Chinese men still don’t grasp this fact. Chinese men need to respect themselves more, if they think that the only way to show their superiority is to get a woman of lower income than them, they themselves are creating loads of problems in the society.

      • ziccawei

        Shanghai women are anything but submissive! In Shanghai, woman is boss. The husband does all the housework – cooking, cleaning, shopping, everything.

        But in terms of men wanting a woman of lower income – that works both ways. This may be the reason why there are so many Shengnu in China now – women trying to find a guy making more money than her.

        By the way, Jin, nice blog.

        :cool:

        • http://hongkonggirltalk.com/ Jin @ HKGirlTalk

          I love the craziness in Shanghai but didn’t know that women are that powerful and bossy. It seems fun to me LOL.

          Thanks, I’m happy that you enjoy my blog.

      • PeiGe

        Deriving from Django’s post, he is talking about cities like Shanghai, Beijing etc, in rural areas it is way more difficult for women to be that successful, because they just get fewer opportunities. Educated girls from the rural areas move to bigger cities anyway. Therefore, in the rest of my post I will be talking about the situation in these cities.

        ‘It’s a traditional Chinese thinkings that kill those Chinese women.’

        I agree with this, but kindly disagree with the rest of the post. Normal couples both have jobs these days, even in China. Rich couples will have someone to clean their house. Normal couples just let the parents-in-law do it.
        If we are talking about these kind of women, which guys can satisfy their requirements? Which guys can satisfy the requirements of their parents? Equally or more successful guys? Those guys already have wifes, probably even second wifes too because they are that successful. Women of their stature will not accept to be a third wife, nor should they even consider to be a second wife IMO.

        You cannot blame the Chinese men, nor blame the Chinese women, its the fault of the thinking of the Chinese society in this era, 没办法, mei ban fa, nothing can be done about it.

  • PeiGe

    Firstly, China is an economy which is rising and rising.
    Everyone wants to go up the ladder. Therefore girls (and their families) are looking for guys who can financially support them well, and often set too high requirements of Chinese boys.
    Kind and good guys are less likely to become more rich than their counterparts, since being successful and rich often requires one to be relentless in business, survival of the fittest. Girls pursuing those rich guys will find out after a while that the one they are with are not good, and will try to find others. However, it is also likely that they already had sex and the girl is not a virgin anymore, Chinese guys stress the importance of having a wife who was a virgin when they met thus it will be difficult for these girls to find a good guy to marry, since it doesnt matter for the guy whether he is virgin or not.

    For girls who dont need the financial support, it usually means they are already financially fine, meaning that their parents are rich. Those girls are most of the time incredibly spoiled, Chinese girls are spoiled in general because of the one child policy (a child is a parents’ treasure), but those girls are ever far worse. Therefore, how many men can bear those women? Also, if they would be together with a poorer man, their family would lose face, therefore it is very difficult for them to find a good match, especially considering that if they would find a rich second generation boy, he also is spoiled. (This reminds me of a rich 2nd gen. guy who was together with a rich 2nd gen girl, been together for quite a few years, married, child on the way. He always was playing around with girls, and eventually just mailed his wife the divorce papers without saying anything prior.)

    If the girl is romantic, which many girls are….they are likely to be influenced by all those Korean TV shows, internet blogs, about true love, princes on horses etc. This also makes them set the requirements too high. A Chinese friend once advised me to apologize to my ex-gf after a fight which was her fault, I had to start to apologize, before anything else. I asked why, he said, that this is just Chinese. (I refused to do that though…)

    Finally, parents…their parents/family must approve. Family is important in China, if the family of the girl or guy doesnt approve, it will be very difficult to continue the relationship. I dont think I need to go in detail on this, as I think many here know this already. Even if everything else is fine, if the family doesnt approve, it will probably not happen.

    All in all, girls just set too high standards, guys just cant keep dicks in their pants. There are also some other small factors which play a role which I cant think of atm, but…
    Thats just how Chinese society at the moment is, ofcourse there are exceptions, but the non-exceptions are the majority, its difficult for an exception to find another exception.

    Edit: Forgot to mention everything is worse in Shanghai.

  • FiFi

    to the person who said Chinese girls are picky : that is not true, my family has Chinese cable so we can watch Chinese shows and stuff so there’s this dating show where one guy comes on the show and there would be 20 girls he can choose from. and the girls can decide if they like him or not and in the end the guy gets to choose which one he wants and BELIEVE me there were some ugly ass guys on there with decent jobs who took home a really pretty girlfriend. the ratio of good looking girls to guys is disproportional in China

  • Lonepine82

    As far as I’m concerned, the reason is not important why Chinese men far outnumber Chinese women but many Chinese women are single or not involved in a loving relationship.  What is important is that there are many eligible men around the world who would cherish them properly.  So if Chinese men are blind to beautiful, successful, women … the one’s loss is the other’s gain.

    • Chelsy

      But it’s too hard to meet “the other” …

  • samson7799

    For the Chinese men – like women but there is only one that will inspire your sole, nature it and purify it as your mother intended. Once you are with her then leave the liking women and change to loving a woman. God created a women as if she was the rib that protects the man heart. Protect and nourish this part of the body. Remember you as man is selling your body part when you buy sex or ask for it from outside. You are more then that Oh Men of China
    For the Chines Woman: don’t give up not looking sexy, give a little different every day, a new smile, a new pose, a new bed so all the variety that is out there is in you. A woman that loves a man even if he is a beggar – all great men in the world are beggars. Hold his hand and make him cross the street and he will hold your hands to cross the seas —- 

  • Laislabonita

    Coz chinese girls are way too materialistic! Chinese girls required a man have a house, a car and much money to get married with her. Well if you are a foreign guy like me you could find any chinese girls without considering if you are rich! Coz most chinese girls want green card only! Not romantic? but you could get as MANY chinese girls as you want via this! just never married with them! Trust me, I have played with more than 30 chinese girls during 3 months! And in china you could see the majority of white husband/chinese wife are a white old man or a whack white guy with a young chinese wife! Many chinese girls only want a foreign boyfriend but they do not really care who you actually are. So I think chinese girls could never love anyone but you could have sex with them easily!

    • Chelsy

      Any chinese girls? Most chinese girls? 30 in 3 months? I almost feel sorry for you…

  • mikie

    Well I am a white guys marrying a chinese girl and ended up with divorce. And here I would like to talk about my feelings about those chinese girls. First I must say that many chinese girls are pretty. And most chinese girl want a exotic boyfriend ESPECIALLY you are a white guy from developed country. XD But they are a little bit mean. They always told me that chinese men have many disadvantages… but the fact is that i do have some friends who are chinese men and they really do not have those disadvantages like those chinese girls told me. Also my sister was always told that “chinese men have small penis” by many chinese girls. However, the interesting thing is: my sister’s ex-boyfriend is chinese and he is good at bed… Some of her friends have asian boyfriends from other countries and they also said asian man are good at bed. In short, I think chinese girls do not really love me but only want a white guy. that is why they are insulting asian men even not hesitate to lie! and I have to say it is so mean… The other thing is — many chinese girls do not value the equality between spouses: After married they will require you to “BEAR ME WITH PLEASURE AND SINCERE EVEN IF I AM WRONG COZ YOU LOVE ME” (just like BEFORE getting married with you they did not think anything is your fault even if you did something wrong) After married, they always said “if you love me, you must do that” which is so silly — SHE did something wrong, I should be blamed instead? Finally they do not pay attention to privacy and never trust — she checked my text messages and email everyday “for me” LOL Finally I would wish you good luck if you want to be married with a chinese girl…

  • james

    no ! so far on last two years i have chengdu ( zigong ) china girls friend. also in relationship just 9 months , she leftover me. because of money i can’t help her friend hospitality bill, i really not understand ? also she always tell me buy house put his name?

  • brokenanddiseased

    Along with the growing wealth in China, the divide between the classes is even greater. The upwardly mobile, educated women do not want the life, nor the relationship that their mother had and the lower class, uneducated women feel that they have no other choices in life, but to sell themselves. At either extreme, it is difficult to find a partner for a long term relationship. Furthermore, a large majority of Chinese men still live with the idea that polygamy is ok (even American born Chinese who do business in China). I know from experience since my spouse and all of his colleagues think this way… they may be married in one country but not in another. When the male vs female issues are mixed, it makes it almost impossible for truly good, long lasting partnerships to result. Considering this knowledge, the only reason I stay with my spouse is for the sake of his kids, having what they need in this point of life.

  • kodihi

    An overwhelming number of young women in China are too easy to get into bed with, which is great for guys who like being single while having lots of meaningless sex. Do an experiment and go outside in China and strike up a conversation with random girls then after about ten minutes of talking ask her for her phone number. If you were successful in having a conversation with her then 99.999999 percent of the time she will give you her number out of some sort of obligation not to be considered rude. Then its simply a matter of time before you can sleep with her by convincing her you are reliable. Who wants a girl that will give you her number and then sleep with you the first or second day after meeting? This may have something to do with the difference in social status of men and women in China. Many women feel content with simply latching onto a successful man regardless of if he is married or not and live the life of a kept woman. Love is for fools……. This idea destroys the love game for successful women in China. It is like an unspoken rule in China that a man should have several women…… 不要为一棵树放弃世界上的森林 It’s a mans world. Most men in China cannot accept women who are successful or who think for themselves because that would be considered a direct threat to their male ego or power, furthermore most are not very manly to begin with, so why would they want to compromise what little soft power they have already? Most Chinese men want a woman who will simply have their baby and often love is not the issue. If they have any sort of success in their careers it will be very easy to have multiple women whenever they please, so the attractiveness of the wife is not very important.

    Attractive women go for successful guys, but successful guys usually wont marry a woman who is too attractive because she is dangerous. Many guys will want to play with her…….. bosses, colleagues, etc…. furthermore she can use her beauty to gain favor in her career. So many of them become “kept women” and concubines of successful men.

    Successful women are usually not interested in being subjugated by men with big frail egos, so they make the sacrifice of career over marriage.

    Or women waste their youthful years being picky and pass on the men who really love them for the men who are only using them, then they become the leftover women.

    Its the only way to keep a harmonious society in balance.

    • icarusty

      maybe her parents need to raise chinese daughters up properly, not make them so fucking socially naive

  • Frankie Tsang

    Why do all these chinese girls come to the USA to work in massage parlors and be whores? I see so many….and am so ashamed!

    • icarusty

      5 dorrar for white baby??

      you know I’m right.

  • kenny

    Why chinese woman prefer foreigner.Has many reasons of this like , love , respect, romantic, handsome, well educated, well sexual activity, if marry can birth more babies and babies can speak two mother languages, go another country live different culture and lifestyle, not need spend to life for nonsense (buy home or car by credits), less parents stress , freedom…Wake up Chinese Woman…

  • icarusty

    I laugh at the long list of “reasons” that chinese women give about finding a partner. The fact is, I have seen LOADS of chinese (and other east asian) women paired with men with the list of faults accused of chinese men – cheaters, not treating them right, poor, short, ugly, fat, etc etc – sometimes all the above – only thing is, they’re white.

    Go figure.

    The problem is that this mindset of white idolisation is so far entrenched that it will take new generations of women and a completely different way of thinking and teaching to move away from this. Having said that, there is hope… with awareness comes resentment, leading to resistance… the more chinese men and the few straight thinking, ethnocentric chinese women left start calling it out, the easier and more prevalent it would be for chinese – and asians – to start reversing the trend and in time, doing what blacks and arabs (and what whites are doing to the chinese now) are doing with whites.

  • lishu

    1. Chinese women are becoming more independent and stronger. Not that traditonal, they want real love, they want same level or higher level men.

    2. Chinese men are good at telling a lie, not faithful.

    3.Chinese men are not as good as Chinese woman, no matter on career or other things, a few good quality men already booked when they were younger.

    4. Some Chinese women want too much, too hight standard, they want true love, money, career, good personality, good looking, their family background….no one is perfect. And you can’t get “fish” and “bear’s paw” both…( you can either get high quality or low price ).

    5.Chinese women are not very social even thought some modern Chinese still are not very open minede, few chance to meet new people.

    6.Men are not reliable, Chinese women don’t need to relay on men anymore.

  • Adam

    If you guys have had any experience with the Chinese female of all ages,( not just the one chid policy) you would find out they are impossible to please.
    It is all about them. Foreigners please be carefull and stay away from them as they will attack everything you hold dear in life. “Your sanity.” Money, they love it. Lies, yep and so on.
    The Chinese guys have to put up with their continual selfish non-sense.
    The most materialistic society I have ever witnessed.