Chinese Girls and Individuality

Why Chinese Girls Don't Want To Be Independent?

为什么中国女孩不想独立？

Guest article by SamReeves

Sam Reeves has lived and worked in China for over eight years. He is the author of 'Chinese Dating Secrets Exposed', a book to help non-Chinese navigate the complex subject of dating and marriage with Chinese women.

'Idol/Idle girls' pop group: 'Similarity breeds contempt'....or was that 'familiarity'?

In China itself, individualism is a somewhat unnecessary luxury for most people, it can even be something that causes a great many problems in many forms of relationships, no matter familial, personal or career related.

An example which I have heard from Chinese males on numerous occasions when asking them if they found a particularly charismatic and independent Chinese girl attractive was “no, she’s too independent, she wouldn’t look after my parents or her own”. Why this idea that if a female is independent would lead to her being un-filial is seemingly accepted unquestionably as a form of ‘Chinese logic’.

I’ve even asked the males in question: “so, you would prefer ‘a bird in cage’?” (a Chinese idiom reflecting a female docile and devoid of independence, looked after, and with little, if any, desire to escape); each time I have asked this, I have received the same unashamed response “Yes!”.

To be fair to Chinese males, I’ve known quite a few Chinese girls who’ve said they wanted to be ‘a bird in a cage’, as in their opinion it would be quite a comfortable life (none of these had ever been married before though). From the point of view of personal relationships in China alone, it can be seen that a developed sense of individualism in a Chinese female actually leads to less choices in a prospective husband; and this is only one of the problems a strong sense of individuality can cause to a Chinese person.

From the native Chinese I have known I would give a rough estimation that approximately seventy to eighty percent of Chinese females are to a great degree, very similar, in thought, action and emotional responses. Now obviously you will find some differences i.e. one likes to eat ‘sweet and sour pork’ but another likes to eat ‘spicy fish’, but my meaning is more based on character, common responses based on external stimuli, and thought; it can actually be no other way, due to Chinas’ cultural development over thousands of years, based greatly on Confucianism and conformity, not to mention the extreme levels of peer pressure that have resulted from this.

Again, let me point out, that this allusion to Chinese conformity is not insulting to Chinese (or at least the many I have spoken to) nor is it meant as such, it’s simply a huge difference in thought and opinion. How does this affect a western males’ relationship with a Chinese girl/woman? In my honest view and from what I’ve seen and experienced, in actual fact most relationships between westerners and Chinese go through an almost exact same set of problems and issues and even, frequently, within a similar time frame (i.e. after ‘X’ amount of months she will bring up the subject of marriage, no matter you mention it or not, even when you think the relationship is far from a suitable one for a prospective marriage!)

The Beauty of ‘Chinese Logic’ and a Distinct Lack of Interest in Individuality

Without going too deeply into the roots of what many Chinese people have referred to as ‘Chinese logic’ and what a westerner may refer to as ‘circular logic’, in the early years of living in China I had a conversation with my then girlfriend as to why I felt very strongly that she should be developing her individuality, at the time she presented an argument which certainly seemed logical and acceptable to her, yet one which I would have serious trouble living my own life by:

Me: You know, you should really be learning to think for yourself.

Her: Why?

Me: What kind of stupid question is that?

Her: It’s not a stupid question; I want you to tell me the benefits of thinking for myself.

Me: Well, if you think for yourself you can then find out the best way for yourself, and not end up living the same kind of life as everyone else.

Her: But I want to live the same kind of life as everyone else. Why wouldn’t I?

Me: Because the same mistakes they make, you will also make, because you believed without question what they told you.

Her: But what they told me was true.

Me: But you don’t know it’s true.

Her: Why would everyone say the same thing and yet it’s not true?

Me: Because they think the same as you, and someone else told them it was true, so they believed it without bothering to find out the facts and then parroted the same things you are now parroting.

Her: Well, If everyone says it’s true, it becomes so.

Me: That’s ridiculous.

Her: Not in China it’s not.

Me: What on earth are you talking about?

Her: If everyone in China says and believes a certain thing to be true, then it is.

Me: Huh!

Her: For example, everyone says that if a girl is well-behaved she will get a good husband to take care of her, as men look for the well-behaved girl, so if I act well behaved I will get a good husband, as good husbands look for good girls because everyone expects them to marry that type.

Me: What about if you’re not actually a ‘good girl’ in Chinese opinion?

Her: Then I will just change myself to act like I am good girl.

Me: And exactly how long can you ‘pretend’ to be a good girl, the rest of your life?

Her: If needs be. The outer structure and rules will mold and change my inner character. So if I simply follow the cultural blueprint other Chinese people tell me to, I will get the same results as them.

Me: It’s really true when they say the Chinese are the best at ‘reproduction’ in the world.

Her: What?

Me: Nothing, bad joke. I don’t really think you forcing your inner character to change will result in happiness. I think you’re misguided.

Her: But if everyone around me is also misguided then I won’t know the difference will I? And if I don’t know the difference I won’t be able to compare, and it’s comparison that leads to dissatisfaction, and dissatisfaction leads to unhappiness. So, as you can see, as long as everyone Chinese around me remains in the same situation I do, I will never be unhappy, and neither will they. It works.

Me: ….Talking to you really depresses me sometimes.

Her: The feeling’s mutual!

Suitable Chinese Wives/Girlfriends?

Many Chinese girls I would actually class as totally unsuitable for a relationship with a westerner, let alone living in a western country and having to adapt to the culture and lifestyle. To this day I still get many a Chinese female with dreams of romance and starting a new life asking me to introduce them to a foreign boyfriend (incidentally, if you ever get a Chinese girl asking you to introduce her to a foreign boyfriend, nine times out of ten, she means YOU!), yet a series of simple questions will often show me that even were a relationship between her and a western guy to actually happen it would most definitely end badly, or continue as an unhappy one.

With that said, it does still leave twenty to thirty percent of Chinese females (approx) that would actually make great partners, and 20-30% of an estimated 465,020,030 females (2008) is still a lot, not to mention Chinese females born in a western country.

All the best.
Sam Reeves

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com

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http://wanderingamericantravelblog.blogspot.com/ WanderingAmerican

I think I must have lucked out with my girlfriend. She generally isn’t the stay at home and watch TV sort like many Chinese girls. And when she does I tease her about it. She’s still surprised by my spontaneity. When we talk and she asks what I did that day I’m always like, “I went fishing!” or “I went hiking in the mountains!” or “I went and shot a bunch of guns!” The whole concept of Asian logic is dead on though. It’s just different and I don’t think it’s going to change anytime soon.

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

Ya, it’s not likely to change anytime soon as you said. The whole structure of it is designed to resist that change… sometimes I think that’s a shame but that’s just my cultural bias appearing again I guess :shock:

Reading all the things you do I think you have too much time on your hands! haha… shooting guns!? :o

http://wanderingamericantravelblog.blogspot.com/ WanderingAmerican

Whatever you say, nancy boy.

E.

Whether she likes to go outside or watch t.v. largely depends on whether she grew up in a city or the countryside. The real question is can she think an original thought.
3jay

Is this perhaps because she is not a “typical” Chinese girl? If I’m not totally mistaken, she is non-Han and also hails from a city with a high percentage of non-Han Chinese. Maybe there’s something in their upbringing and cultural background that makes them less prone to said “reproduction” (as SamReeves put so well)?

http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

Hunting fishing guns….

Bloody hell, WA, who are you? Hemingway?

http://wanderingamericantravelblog.blogspot.com/ WanderingAmerican

I’m an American who wanders the wastes, I make love like an eagle falling out of the sky, I’ve been to the top of Mt. Olympus and punched Zeus in the face, and I’ve caught the Kraken with my bare hands. I am WA.

http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

You make love like an eagle falling out of the sky? That can’t be very nice for your ‘angel’. Oh hang on, that’s that other bloke. carry on.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/woaibabamamabaobao1314 Elijah

So WA, a lot of screaming, flapping about and absolute terror? How about your girl?

I lift my Angel up to her ‘peak’ then let her experience the rush of sky-diving…. All in the safety of our bed.

Awesome is as awesome does.

http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

So WA is an eagle and you’re a parachute?

What kind of websites have you geeks been getting advice from?

Me, I’m a tiger, baby. I make ‘em roar. ROOOAAAAARRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

:mrgreen:

http://wanderingamericantravelblog.blogspot.com/ WanderingAmerican

I have a Chinese scroll that shows an eagle ripping the heart out of a tiger. No joke. I am clearly superior, sir. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKK!!!!!!!!! (Or whatever noise eagles make)

http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

And as we’re scrapping it out…. Look out here comes Elijah the parachute man. Uh oh! He’s gone commando!

http://blog.sina.com.cn/woaibabamamabaobao1314 Elijah

Hells no! I’m in a glider suit.

Having pillows under your arms and between your legs is the bomb!

Teacher in China

That conversation example was depressing. The Chinese equivalent of “Stepford Wives”. It might be a good time to get in on stocks of Valium.

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

Haha…Stepford wives, I remember the first generation of those films in the eighties. That’s a good example.

I actually rather liked those films! :lol:

Utah not Mormon

Sounds like he is a lot like me in some respects, I do the same things and more. Shooting, fishing, hiking, skiing, flying etc.
http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

I have spoken to a number of Chinese girls that wish to remain single (or at least avoid marriage) in an attempt to have more independence.
SB

Interesting article, but it should be noted that the essentialist, context-free “self” is a somewhat western concept, and understanding that helps make sense of the Chinese woman’s comments.

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

Yep, I totally agree.

The whole culture has to be viewed with that in mind… or not in mind as the case may be.

Django

My wife was always considered too independent by her friends. She took driving lessons over 10 years ago, got her MBA shortly afterwards, decided to study English to pass the toefl to find a job with a foreign company, and buy a house. Whenever she told her friends about her plans they thought she was crazy and that no Chinese guy would want a girlfriend like that. She didn’t care and did these things because she wanted to & it brought her a great deal of satisfaction when she accomplished the goals she set out for. Years later her friends started to follow her example and ask her for advice. I guess over time they found out that trying to live your life living up to someone else’s ideal will only leave you wanting. Its fun to see what she did because she wanted to, is now considered fashionable in her circle of friends.

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

That’s great, I really admire the ones that trail-blaze, as it’s definitely a hard thing to do, going against all that peer pressure.

http://laowaiink.weebly.com Mark

More often than not, a Chinese girl who spends a lot of time with foreigners (guys and girls) and certainly a Chinese girl who gets involved in a serious relationship with one will be branded as “too independent and individual” for Chinese sensibilities.

It’s a different culture for sure and the gung-ho lone wolf fantasy isn’t really viable here, nor should it be. But every Chinese girl I’ve met who is “more independent” than her peers has never regretted being so, even if it diminishes her prospects. Once you’ve left the cave, there’s no going back.

And just to clarify, I don’t believe that in order for a Chinese person to be independent, they need Western culture to do so. It just seems that with independence being such a fierce virtue in Western society, anyone who hangs around that society will inevitably get influenced by it.

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

I really like your phrase: ‘Once you’ve left the cave, there’s no going back.’

It’s so true. As you said, many of the independent types do gravitate towards foreigners simply because they are not viewed as strange but are simply accepted.

In my view Chinese females go one of two ways: their natural independence is stifled and they quit fighting, or their character is so strong that others who know them quit fighting them, and just decide their ‘crazy’.

I should say the first kind can reemerge later in life sometimes after a divorce; sometimes, but not always.

Wennie

‘I should say the first kind can reemerge later in life sometimes after a divorce’
to be or not to be,your phrase really faithful to human nature, i like it.

Wennie

Once you’ve left the cave, there’s no going back.
its great

ulickmcgee

We are not that independent in the West. We are selfish. Independent people are usually men and very few and far between. Independent woman is a code word for slut.

Single, SWPL Californians are a good example. 30-somethings like teenagers. Hugely invested in dating and therefore status signaling for sexual display, striving desperate to show their uniqueness by doing exactly the same as every other SWPL. The amount of conformity is shocking but they all think they are individuals.

The reason that traditional cultures encourage woman to be dependent on their families is because only a woman subconsciously knows when she is ovulating and female human instinct is to secure a provider and then breed with a more attractive lover. Social harmony and economic success depends on convincing the average guy to give up his freedom and concentrate on accumulating wealth to provide for his wife and kids. If they are not his kids, he won’t invest in the family which means less wealth, less babies, smaller armies and being conquered by your neighbors (which is what is happening in Mexifornia today). If a woman has a choice she will take the average guy’s money and then sleep with sexy and exciting men when the fancy takes her (which will be when she is ovulating). Many a foreigner has benefitted from that situation in China.

A bird in a cage is better than what we have in the English speaking world today – huge numbers of childless woman who have been scammed into thinking that a career is superior to a family. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think women should be encouraged to stay at home and mind babies. However, many woman will be happier doing that and have no idea because the machine has convinced them that filling their lives with shoes and interesting foreign holidays brings more fulfillment than the love of a child.

More like 80% of Chinese woman would make great wives for foreigners. Wives is the word, not partners unless you plan to open a company together. A wife is forever. Let’s see how interesting you find your individual, well-rounded Western wife after 20 years (that’s if she hasn’t divorced you by then to get at your money).

Chinese wisdom is inherently superior in the area of family, love and relationships. We are fed nothing but shiite in the English speaking world on these topics. That boring girl who only watches TV and thinks the same as everyone else won’t give you throat cancer from cunnilingus because she got into an interesting conversation with the meths-dealing bad boy biker at a dive bar who bare-backed her in the men’s toilets. An exaggeration, right? Nope, not even. Sorry guys, unless you are a very masculine man who is constantly sleeping with your wife/gf, you will be cheated on in the West at some point. It is inevitable although you may not find out about it because woman are inherently sneaky. This is much less likely in a traditional culture with strong family ties.

The sad fact is that 70-80% of Anglo women do not make suitable wives.

http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

GOLD!

:mrgreen:
http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

There’s a lot of points in there.

My favorite is related to everyones’ so independent just like each other! A good observation.

As to 80% of Chinese females being able to marry western males then sure, they can marry them, but they would drive each other crazy and it would end in divorce. I’ve seen it happen too many times.

I’m not sure why you think a Chinese female wouldn’t cheat on you the same as a western female might. I can actually say for sure that certain kinds of Chinese women are just much better at hiding it. You even mention the ‘ovulation’ effect in relation to foreigners and Chinese females at the beginning of the comment. Women are women.

Once a month is still better than every Friday night in a mans case though! :grin:

ulickmcgee

Re divorce, you are right. I am ranting to make the point that the lack of independence of Chinese should not be seen as a bad thing. It has advantages as well as disadvantages. What is good for the individual may not be good for the group. However, a match does have to be made on more than sexual attraction or it will work out badly.

Re cheating, when you have strong, interconnected relationships and your well-being depends on these, the consequences for breaking the rules are much higher. Once you lose support of your network, you won’t be able to get the help you need in business or life.

Look at that girl from the Cantopop group Twins (Gillian?). Let her bad boy Chinese Canadian boyfriend snap a few tame shots of her in her birthday suit. Career over. Similarly talentless American women make hardcore porn sex tapes just to kick start their career. Now you might think that it was the mad bush on her than killed her career (seriously, break out the hedge trimmer, Gillian or braid it or somethin’). But actually it was all the HK women who were so outraged at this “slut”. Slut shaming is the province of women. Men rarely will shame sluts unless they can’t get/don’t want access to the slutty kitty (old men, holy men, closet pillow biters) or it helps their political career by sucking up to women (although a politician in American who suggests women be chaste will be shamed out of office himself).

So although Chinese women may want to cheat, the traditional culture here makes is much less likely. There is less of an opportunity to cheat because of a lack of independence from the family and less of a temptation to do so because of the negative consequences.

Chinese women also know it is wrong. Western women tell themselves they are “trapped” in marriage to a man who doesn’t “get them”. Oprah told them they deserve more. They deserve to Eat, Pray, Love. You know your culture is about to collapse when 40 year old women think that divorce is going to lead to hot sex and romance with exotic foreigners. That’s your 20′s. Romance for 40-y-o divorced women more usually will involve cats.

bomber

Hey man,

You make some interesting points, but I am worried that you might be generalizing a little too much. As many of us who have lived and grown up in western countries know, there are immense problems with the current cultural paradigm that emanates from them. Women’s “rights” taken to an unhealthy extreme; promises of a fulfilling life and career if they strike out on their own and don’t begin a family (which is nothing to be ashamed of if that is what they really want.) These same women often end up in a later spate of depression and anxiety as they have no family network with which to connect; no children to call their own. This, however is very much how they are LIKE Chinese (and women everywhere for that matter), and not different from them. Just willing believers in what the society rams down their throat as the appropriate role for someone of their social status. They cling to a culture of individualism but interpret their preferences as the mark of their individuality – as opposed to, say, their beliefs, their core moral philosophy, the transcendent aspects of the human experience that by and large men almost exclusively seem to ponder.

I could go on about the flaws in western culture, and how women have become more masculine as men have been turned into geldings, but that’s not what the original post was about.

There are two sides to every coin, and all the things that you list as strengths and benefits for Chinese women and families can also be looked at another way. Just think about that fact that not only does China have a massive imbalance of women : men, it also enjoys the odious distinction of having the highest number of female suicides on earth. And not by a little. Those close-family ties may seem cute and noble on the outside, but from the inside they can look like a prison. (Obviously not for everyone!) I think that you (and Mr. Reeves) would do well to remember that women often say one thing and mean another. (This is not a criticism, just a statement of fact based on my personal experience – and this is not always a bad thing… it’s just the way they operate!) For example, the problem in the above conversation is that certain cues were not picked up on. If the conversation had started “Baby, I decided I want to do all your thinking for you… You never need to worry about making any choices ever again, because I love you so much that I know what you want.” Things might have turned out very, very differently. Subtlety…

Finally, I don’t think the generalizations you made about Chinese womens’ chastity is necessarily true. With wealth comes opportunity, and the odds are the wealthier a Chinese woman’s family is, the more likely she is to cheat. And let’s not forget that those “close families” are a cause of endless suffering for Chinese people – you may have heard of Li Gang’s notable offspring? One person sees “strong family values” another sees “clannish nepotism, patriarchy and backwardness.”

Louisa

You know, I thought we tried that “happy housewife” thing up until the 60s (at least America did). What we got was a rash of housewives doped up on antidepressants and the invention of the soap opera.

What I’m wondering is why you feel women are scammed into thinking career is more important than family when a lot of men think the same way? Hasn’t society also taught men that making a shatton of money and filling their lives with big screen tvs and gadgets is more important over connecting with a child? And that the extent of “supporting a family” is making money but not having to spend time with the wife and kids?

As for cheating, skanky hos exist in every country and culture. I have had white friends who have cheated. I’ve had Asian friends who have cheated. It’s pretty silly to say that Chinese culture prevents girls from cheating. They probably just hide it better.

P.S. Eat, Pray, Love is a flaming pile of dog s**t. I think most women who are secure with themselves found that book to be an embarrassment. Too bad there are more insecure women out there who made the book a bestseller.

ulickmcgee

Studies that measure happiness seem to indicate that woman are unhappier today than in the 60′s.

I said we have huge numbers of childless women who have been scammed in the West into thinking that career is more important. Childless is the key point.

Men are scammed too but we were designed by nature to pursue sex. Kids are a by product of sex but we can take ‘em or leave ‘em. Few men pine for children. However, many men do love competition with other men more so than women and a career gives you a chance to compete with others for big rewards.

Childless career woman can rationalise all they want but they have still been had. Cats are no substitutes for kids. Plus successful men with great careers get more and better sexual opportunities and can still get married and have kids.

The discussion is pertinent to the blog post because independence has its costs. One cost, for a significant number of educated white women, is childlessness. Taking a snap shot of a Chinese woman’s life, her single days (up to 25) or her fertile period (up to 35) doesn’t tell the full story in a world where people live to be 80. There is a short term cost for a long term gain. How many Chinese 70 year olds have been abandoned by their kids to live in an Old Folks Home compared to American?

I didn’t want to get into it but “studies show” that Chinese women are significantly less promiscuous than white women who are significantly less promiscuous than black women. There are evolutionary reasons for this but it is off-topic. One the many reasons that white guys like Chinese women so much is because Chinese women subconsciously advertise their fidelity by their behavior, such as being very dependent on their family and staying in all the time watching TV. The culture comes from the genes and reinforces the hard-wired behaviour.

It is not silly to suggest that close parental supervision, high levels of mate-guarding, active slut-shaming and nasty consequences for cuckolding a husband prevent women from cheating. Culture influences fidelity, how could it not?

Louisa

I think everyone except for people who identify themselves as asexual were designed by nature to pursue sex. Men just have it easier since they don’t have to live with extra weight for 9 months. The pill was invented so that women could have all the sex they wanted and not have to live with pregnancy. Women want it just as much as men; it’s just that society frowns on women who are open about sex and call them things like slut. Does it “prevent” cheating? I don’t know, as one can cheat but no one can find out.

Culture does indeed influence behavior, I will agree to an extent. But using your logic that Chinese culture prevents cheating than Christian, Islamic, and Jewish women should also be non-cheaters, as adultery is still a sin. Slut-shaming and possessiveness in relationships exists in the “Western” world too, but obviously that hasn’t stopped infidelity from happening. Your study on promiscuity doesn’t have to do anything with cheating. Promiscuity does not equal unfaithfulness. The girl could be a polyandrous relationship for all you know.

This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument at the very least, so we’ll go around in circles until the earth is swallowed up by the sun. It is also not on topic. Best to just leave it alone.

And my Chinese grandfather lives in a retirement home paid for by his children. Most of the other residents at his 10 story retirement complex are also of Asian descent. He likes it that way, gives him more independence. Traditional filial piety is pretty much dying out as Chinese people move closer to the “modern world.”

ulickmcgee

Louisa, men have a much stronger sex drive than women. This is scientific fact. Women are very sexual, but only with the right men. So a frigid wife turns into a sex-mad beast with a new lover.

The pill was invented by men who planned to get rich by allowing men to have sex without wearing a condom.

Slut shaming is how women stop other women from stealing their men.

Society frowns on slutty behaviour because every society that does not will eventually collapse – look at the English speaking countries today. No incentive for stable relationships and investment in child-rearing. Populations collapsing. Invasion by low IQ, 3rd world hordes who refuse to live by the laws that made the West successful but aggressively control the sexuality of women and men.

In the nature versus nurture argument, nature has won but is it blasphemy against the PC religion that dominates the West to say so.

The modern world is a scam designed to get you out shopping. The love of family and friendship are the only valuable things in the world.

It may be very modern in China to place your Granddad in a Home but there won’t be any status pay-off when everyone is doing it.

Louisa

You know what? This has derailed far off topic. 3 things and I’m done with this.

Sluts will be sluts, no matter how much you embarrass them. If you use the nature argument, it is hard-wired into them that they will be skanky. Will it prevent man stealing? More likely it’ll cause a cat fight and the slut will find another way to get with your man, as women are a driven and crafty bunch when it comes to getting what they really want. They’ll just find a better way to keep it secret. When I said society frowned on women who were open about sex, I did not mean slutty behavior. I meant the whole scope of women who might have had multiple partners. This could be from a string of one night stands, a string of monogamous relationships, or even alternative relationships like polyandry. Society just lumps it all into the slut category and calls it a day. That’s what I meant.

The “modern” world is very consumer driven. Nowhere in my comments have I denied that. And nowhere in my comments have I denied that family and friends are important. Career driven women can also have family and friends. Plus, there’s always adoption if the woman doesn’t want to (or can’t) give birth.

Putting my grandfather in a retirement home (he’s in the US, not China, should’ve made that clear) was not some sort of status payoff. His kids didn’t have the time or the house space to take care of him and my grandmother. It was a matter of necessity for them to be in a place where they can be properly looked after. Even now when the children do have large homes and can have him move in, he doesn’t want to since he’s used to having his own place. And neighbors he can play mahjong with. :smile:

Ning

I’ve never heard of a woman who really knows she’s ovulating. I don’t. The 0,5-1 degree rise in temperature only comes after the egg has probably been spoilt, it’s only fertile for some 20 hours. Strange thing is, I usually want sex more often (in a happy, monogamous relationship) during “niddah” or the week before it, which is like zero chance to get preg. Friends I’ve talked with about this (usually over some drinks) feel the same. We have theorized it’s because of the relatively higher testosterone level before and during menstruation. You religiously obedient are now free to feel disgusted :twisted:

One other thingy you forgot was that most western women who are sexually active do not ovulate at all. Their on the pill, capsule, ring or IUD. They’re just as likely to stray any day of the month. Your hypothesis would make sense in an evolutionary-psychological -kind of way, but biologically, it’s the testosterone that the kidneys produce in women that make them dirty, slutty skanks. Estrogens acctually lessens the sex drive in both sexes.
This was way off-topic but just wanted to clear out some of your pseudoscience.

BlackSugarDaddy

Sorry to be this Chinese-girl-bashing party pooper again, but am incredulous of what you say about 70% to 80% of Chinese girls are similar in thought(empty-minded without sense of individuality). How many girls have you met if not known in the past 8 years working in China and what walks of life do they come from?
Allow me to make a WILD ASSUMPTION that you were working as an English teacher for the first couple of years in China and a fairly large amount of girls/boys you happen to know are students/unfledged fresh grats,who are sure from one-child family in cities and are raised like princes and princess,what’s worse, you dated one of them and ended up badly. And based on this, you actually worked out a seemingly academic essay titled:Why Chinese girls don’t want to be independent? Other than the downplayed illustration of the effect of Confucianism on Chinese females, I don’t see anything that correlates with the title here. It’s rather like a piece of disgruntlement and whining..
Correct me if the ASSUMPTION goes too far !
By the way, isn’t it a good idea to deliver a hopeful and healthy message/image to your readers as you make a living to peddle those dating books ?

Cheers ;-)

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

Who said Chinese women were empty minded? That is an interpretation on your part, and not what I have stated. I do not equal a sense of conformity to stupidity. That would be a western interpretation of the subject matter.

I should also say that I actually didn’t title this article ‘why Chinese girls don’t want to be independent’, it was simply a continuation of a previous article and Crystal put a title to it for some convenience.

I have known thousands of Chinese girls/women in China and in my native country (admittedly more in China for obvious reasons), they come from a broad range of age groups and careers. Doctors, lawyers, T.V hosts and I will admit, the odd student amongst others.

The majority of my relationships are just fine as is my current one thanks blacksugardaddy, this is based on my choices now, which were based on different criteria before. But I’m certainly nowhere close to disgruntled with Chinese females and I don’t really think my article reinforces your view of such either.

ulickmcgee

It is not Chinese girl bashing to suggest that the vast majority of Chinese women hold very similar opinions on life. As the article indicates, Chinese women don’t see this as being a problem. Neither do I.

However, from a Western perspective it does get tedious when everyone shares the same opinions. How many times have I heard: “you foreigners are all very open” as if we all suffer from anal prolapsing (I stole that line from someone, can’t remember who, but kudos).

Things I frequently hear and percentage of women holding those opinions:
Respect the currency (60%)
Foreigners are all very open (70%)
Mixed babies are all very beautiful (80%)
Justin Bieber is very handsome (90%-he’s actually very a fagghot)
You Irish like to drink too much (100% – it’s feckin true)
Taiwan is a part of China (120%)
I hate negroes (5000%)

I have trained myself to find this sexy and now get offended if a bird decides that China doesn’t have 5,000 years of history and culture or that a proper Beijing accent really sounds like trying to talk with an erect penis in your mouth rather than the pillow talk of angels.

Moroes

Ah! The Asian good wife. Never fails to get cheated on. At the brothel joints truely the majority of the customers are married men and divorced men. And they always say when they are a girlfriend they have tons of sex, but when become a wife, no more sex!

Its how they mentally picture their wife. They don’t see their wife the same way when she was his girlfriend.

The good wife. In the man’s perspective:
She Cooks like a mother.
Cleans like a mother.
Raises the kids like a mother.
Takes care of or bosses the husband like a mother.
Then husband has sex with wife feeling like he’s having sex with his mother!
Wait!!! WHAT?!?!

Actually its true. Japan even did research about this. Its the reason why Japanese/Asian men rather hang out with the guys then go back home to his wife. Its like the question: “Do you want to hang out with our friends or your mom?”
BlackSugarDaddy

am looking for a midget and masochist girlfriend who is able to deliver good soothing foot & butt massage
she has to be : 1/ chesty docile with sweet voice 2/ with slim nimble fingers, but no long nails. I hate long nails ! 3/ able to blow a golf ball out through a 10 cm hose

If you happen to meet the above-stated standards, feel free to reach me at holyholywhatever@yahoo.com

:mrgreen:
http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

I’m reading a bit of armchair psychology at the moment in the form of a book called Connections. It states that ANY man married to a black woman who suddenly becomes a widower has an easier time with bereavement than ANY man in the same situation with a white woman. The writer states that this is because the black members of the womans family would more readily accept the man into their family than the white womans family (and some other stuff too). I wonder how this would work in a marriage between a white man and a Chinese woman? And more importantly I’d like to know what you guys think of the girl in the picture with blonde hair. She sure looks lonely. ‘I’m so ronereeee’.

:cool:
hubeijames

Frankly, there’s too much broad stereotyping and generalization in this article for my tastes.

It is accurate to say Chinese (and other East Asian) societies are conservative by Western standards. That explains for 90% of what is being described in this post. The very specific, negative generalizations about Chinese women are unnecessary.

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

@Hubeijames: Negative in a western opinion. Not necessarily a Chinese one. In a Chinese view the keyword would be ‘harmonious’.

Asian culture for the most part is born of Chinese culture, and not the other way round. Therefore what I describe in my post is related to a culture (Chinese) that has spread to the other Asian countries to a greater or lesser extent; greater in view of Korea (who like to claim Confucious was actually Korean) and lesser in regard to the un-conservative philipino’s.

The conservative view comes from confucian philosophy, not some general ‘Asian culture’ amalgamation hybrid that China somehow happens to be part of. To describe the article as basically relating to a ‘conservative nature’ as opposed to the actual historical roots of that inclination is backwards.

Just because many other S.E Asian cultures don’t know they are following Chinese cultural principles it doesn’t mean they are not. They are, and have been for hundreds of years.

Here’s a test on generalization for you to try. Go find a mainland Chinese native and say ‘Thailand’ to them, and wait for them to respond with the word ‘ladyboy!’(they almost all will), now go find a westerner or Japanese/Philipino or whoever, and ask them to tell you the first thing that comes into their mind when you say ‘Thailand’. The results will be very different.

I said ‘similar’, not ‘stupid’. They are only equal from a western perspective.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/woaibabamamabaobao1314 Elijah

Sorry, I have to strongly disagree with you on the cultural point there…

Asian culture and chinese culture are NOT interchangeable.

1) There is no such thing as a “Asian” culture, much the same as there is no such thing as a “Western” culture. You’re talking about many different cultures from the same geographic region, not some Voltron-style super-culture.

2) To say that all other “Asian” cultures follow or copy chinese culture is frankly ridiculous and totally without any form of proof. Just because cultures share similarities, doesn’t mean they copy each other verbatim. For example, Mayans used lunar calendar, as did most ancient cultures. Did they all copy it from chinese culture? No, of course not. Or a lot of Asian languages use characters and not an alphabet, is it copied? Most Asian cultures eat rice as a staple, is that copied? Most Asian religions are Poly-theist, is that copied?

As for the article itself, it’s very interesting, but relies far too much on assumptions and stereotypes without reasonable sources to back them up. I agree that chinese girls have a very similar view of the world, but that can be explained fairly handily by pointing out the overpoweringly collectivist culture that modern day china is entangled in, however that’s just a possible source and not a real exploration of the phenomenon.

I think that if you were to delve more deeply in the root causes rather than the symptoms, it would present a very intriguing article. I encourage you to do so.

By the way, I absolutely love “Once you’re out of the cave, there’s no going back” Extraordinarily apt.

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

Exactly Elijah,

Most of the points you made were what I was saying:

There is no such thing as Asian culture!

But….

‘If’ a person were to say there was this general idea of a ‘conservative’ Asia (which was the point I was replying to) then that would have to point to China, Korea and Japan. The others are much less conservative (I base that on interacting with various Asians by the way, not by stereotyping).

My point is Elijah, where Japan and Korea are concerned (the other big two in Asia)their culture is based on Chinese culture (and an extremely strong confucian influence)…and I’m sorry to say a statement to the opposite is more ridiculous than mine (no offence).

Where do the Japanese race come from Elijah? Do you know? It’s a generally accepted fact by historians that they come from a mountainous tribe in the south of China that migrated to Japan and then began killing off the true locals. What culture exactly do you think those Chinese had?

As for koreans, don’t start me on Koreans :grin: , it’s only within about the last fifty or so years they ceased using ‘han zi’ (Chinese characters)and you are gonna’ tell me there’s no deep Chinese influence? What classes as Korean culture now is a mixture of Chinese and American culture… and females wearing baseball caps (now that is a strereotype, the females wearing basball caps I mean).

Anyway Elijah, I’m not going to provide you with a list of links as I learnt the majority of this before there was an internet, in a place we used to call a library :lol: based on historical evidence (from historians) which I’m sure you can confirm for yourself should you look about a bit.

I never said there was such a thing as ‘Asian culture’ Elijah, on that point we agree, I simply said ‘if’ there is such a thing (conservative) it’s based on perceptions which are related to Chinese culture and ‘the big three’ (China, Japan, Korea), which ALL have their roots in China (historical migration/language/archeological evidence)… I should also mention the Japanese still use kanji (from the Chinese characters). I mentioned philipinos’ in the earlier post to illustrate that there was no such real thing as ‘Asian culture’ (ie. conservative/non-conservative).

As for stereotyping I’ll only say this, I’ve never known any group of people that stereotyping worked so well on as the Chinese :lol: I think that might be because of the Confucian influence and conformity due to peer pressure :lol:

… I don’t really stereotype Elijah to be serious; I only observe over a long period of time and come to a conclusion based on the majority, which is a larger majority than in any other race I have come across. It’s just an observation Elijah, you may disagree and that’s perfectly fine :smile:

http://blog.sina.com.cn/woaibabamamabaobao1314 Elijah

Thank you for the well thought and structured rebuttal.

I’ll admit then that I wasn’t clear on the point you were trying to make.

Yes chinese culture has influenced other cultures for sure, much the same way that American culture influences Canadian culture to a degree or how they’re both descended from European cultures. However, I wouldn’t say that Canadian culture is “based” on American culture, but rather mirrors it or is over-run by it. I think it’s bound to happen with just taking the population stats into consideration. When there’s literally 10 times as many Americans as there are Canadians, it makes an impression. The exact same thing can be said for the different Asian cultures. Seeing as how historically china has maintained either the highest or one of the highest populations in the world it’s bound to happen.

Then there’s also the tendency towards heavy migration, but not integration and the more direct annexation of territory that also leads to chinese culture being exported at least in part.

The point I suppose I’m making is that although it’s undeniable that chinese culture can be found in certain aspects of Japanese, Korean, Pinoy, Thai, etc. etc. etc. cultures, each of those cultures still remains unique and that the flows of intercultural exchange move in both directions (ie: export from china AND import to china). It might not completely nullify your point, but it does provide and addendum that modifies your point.

Although I’d tend to agree with you on your observation that china is a really good model for stereotyping, because with the massive population and distinct lack of choices and individuality, the same small group of ideas are repeated ad nauseum throughout the culture and country.

http://www.magnoliaarts.com ZhuBaJie

For what it’s worth, I think you’re both right. Sam is correct in positing that the Chinese culture is the “basis” of the cultures of Japan and Korea — not just a “mirror” or a source of mutual influence. Zen, for example, such a large part of Japanese culture, did in fact come from and thus is “based on” Chinese Chan Buddhism. The analogy with Canada and the US doesn’t work because they have grown up together; in ancient Asia, China was very much the cultural center of that world and its culture spread to other areas gradually.

But Elijah’s points are also well-taken in that they remind us that the influence is to some extent two-way and that each culture, though receiving impetus and inspiration from China, has also developed in its own direction.

China Shark Mike

Thaistick oh yeah that comes from Thailand. :cool: Never heard of ladyboys until I moved here.

http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

Well this is a chat forum/blog. Everyone’s an internet renegade. If you want serious discussion and opinions that can be more readily understood and replied to the internet is not the place to do it. And on a China-based site where 99% of the contributors are foreign males it’s just going to sound like the soundtrack to 101 Dalmations.
GentleGiant

“Romance for 40-y-o divorced women more usually will involve cats.”

Actually, according to a report published a few months ago, in the UK, there has been a sharp increase in the number of STDs reported by the over 50s age group, as divorced singles indulge in increasing numbers of ONS.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/campaign-to-tackle-soaring-std-rate-among-over50s-2074219.html

http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

And in the group of 50+ the usage of condoms is surprisingly low!

http://blog.sina.com.cn/woaibabamamabaobao1314 Elijah

Thank you both for that mental image….

I hate you all now. :evil:

http://www.magnoliaarts.com ZhuBaJie

What, Elijah, you think sex stops before 50?

I hope, for you and your wife’s sake, it won’t. :lol:

Moroes

Chinese really see independence as isolation. Look closely, Chinese guys are not independent. He will be under his parents til they pass away. He live with or near his parents right?

The closest White drama where a white man lives a similar life to the average Chinese is “Everybody Loves Raymond”. You can remake a Chinese version of that easily and it will somehow look like the Average Chinese Life.

When a girl or even a boy tries to be too independent he/she looks like they want to isolate themselves from family. And maybe it does tend to be true since successful independent women marry at later ages or never marry at all. If they do get married they do isolate their partner into having their own lives. She probably has isolated bank accounts her spouse doesn’t even know about.

When you change the word independent to isolation it doesn’t sound sexy anymore. You can think similar about independent men, I mean isolated men. Wealthy successful independent men (isolated) don’t always show/reveal everything.

ulickmcgee

excellent insight Moroes., I never thought of it that way. Change independent to isolation and it doesn’t sound sexy, so true.

http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

So the idea of a homogeneous mass of people with collective thinking could be slipping away as people become more ‘isolated’?

http://www.themailorderbridessite.com/ Phil B

There are some great girls in China. But sorting the ones who would make a great wife for a Western man from those who would be your worst nightmare is not easy!

http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

Yep Phil, that is the problem unfortunately. But as you said there are some great ones. It’s worth it in the end is all I can say ;-)

http://weibo.com/yeting0210 Ting

As a Chinese girl, i just want to say that people are different and girls are complicated. And I don’t know what kind of Chinese girls you normally date. Most of my girlfriends are independent, smart and tough. Maybe the problems is who you choose to associate with. :roll:
http://chinesedatingsecrets.com/ SamReeves

To be honest, I wasn’t particularly talking about Chinese females I date in view of a lack of independence.

Neither was I talking about those who I associate with either, as those are specifically the types I avoid as the conversation is akin to a broken record, and I generally politely excuse myself.

Most of the Chinese females I also associate with are independent and smart……. ‘birds of a feather flock together’, it’s all in the proportions.

I have to say I don’t consider women complex either, they only like to believe they are, and the majority of men just can’t be bothered to think about it really. Women always have a reason for everything… it’s just mostly they don’t often articulate it, or in some cases know how to.. but there is always a definable reason there. Still, that’s just my opinion.
China Shark Mike

Interesting reading, really enjoyed the mindless dialogue with the girlfriend. Chinese generally will live in preconcieved notions that don’t necessarily make sense but are widely held paradigms. The sheer density of the populace dictates that the nail that stands up will quickly be hammered into conformity. Actually I know I heard it while living in Japan yet not sure anymore who truly this idiom sprang from. Safe bet would probably Confucious though. The native true Japanese like the American Indian were conquered cultures. It’s ironic that the Asian people I’ve come to know are always boasting about how they are pedigree Chinese or Japanese forgetting that Ghenghis Kahn raped and pillaged his way through all of Asia Major and Minor. Incidently the true Japanese are called Aihnu {very dark skinned and hairy}. Living here I’ve learned to grin and bare with TIC. A lot of what the writer states generalizations yet 90% of the time stereotypes were established from observerence. There are plenty of suitable woman here yet individuality sometimes does not work in favor of finding the said husband. I’ve dated all types of Chinese women and come to realize if you want it to work it is possible to do so. My girlfriend Amy have been on and off for the last two years. Finally she agreed I’ll meet the parents this August when we vacation in a half of dozen cities snaking our way up to Beijing {her hometown although she is originally from Inner Mongolia}. I finally have her convinced people don’t just buy a house in two years, it’s ridiculous. I further drove my point forward that I’ll never buy a house I can only own for 70 yrs. If Chinese say something it has to be the truth hence the circle of stupidity on a grand scale. The only reason my relationship has a chance in hell is because I’m the brash partycrashing wildman yet she is the proverbial traditional Chinese woman. She’s introverted/shy while I’m aggressive, overly opinionated jerk at times. Sounds cliche and gay but I’m her Ying to my Yang. She states she wants to get a job and make her own money etc. Never happen because she lacks that strength it takes excell in the workplace. She’s an amazing cook and makes sure my house is always clean. I’ve found one of the last Traditional Chinese Women. She makes me want to buy a couple shirts and you guys all remember how vehemently I was opposed to them. She’s going along with it just to get a new shirt though. Finding the right one is about making compromises in life. She’ll be moving in another week or so I keep you posted. :cool:
upstateNYguy

This is an interesting thread. As an older guy who’s lived in China for some years now, I have observed both the traditional, conformist-type girl and the more modern-type girl in Chinese society. The first thing I can say that there is a very large difference between girls from the very large cities and girls from more remote places.

In China, remote does not necessarily mean distance from large metropolitan areas, but rather isolation from those “modern” regions. Go west of Shanghai just 50 miles, and you will see a huge difference in people’s perceptions of “proper” lifestyle, keys to happiness, etc.

Inside the metropolis, you will see more independent girls, unmarried and less filial than their country cousins, but still very much more dependent on the family’s opinion for their sense of self-worth than is the norm in America. “More” means a higher percentage, because I still see many conservative girls in the large cities. Chinese society promotes more dependence on the family’s advice to adult children than America.

Out in the small cities, a much higher percentage of girls live a traditional life, looking for a stable husband, a purchased apartment and a child on the way before they are 30. I have asked many of them about these needs, and discovered that it was so uniformly drummed into their heads that they don’t dare to break the mold, for fear of not meeting family’s expectations and also never having a family of their own, because they didn’t conform.

I’d like to hear some opinions on why traditional girls are still so attached to these values. City and country alike, they all see the other lifestyles every day. They watch TV, especially Korean shows and American sitcoms, so they are aware of other lifestyles, but still they cling almost irrationally to the husband-apartment-child mantra.They talk on QQ and text each other constantly.

My personal feeling if that the one-child policy has actually emphasized this need for conformity, because most of these girls have already experienced fairly extreme isolation and loneliness during their childhood. The 30-somethings have two working parents (sometimes with one in a different city), are raised more by grandparents with traditional values than by their parents, and really don’t establish friendships with people their own age until they reach the upper levels of school. For the ones I’ve asked, most of these girls have been, by their own admission, very lonely while growing up, so they fear if they don’t conform, they will be lonely their whole lives. Other opinions?
Mia

OMG, how old is she?? 60??Born before the country established??Maybe just a little bit better than my grandma! It’s not conformity, it’s antiquated and blindness!
Seventy to eighty percent?? What??
character, common responses? …it can actually be no other way?? what?!!
What social circles r u in???

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