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Where's Lysistrata? Taiwan’s Not-yet-dauntless Females - Part V

《吕西斯忒拉忒》在哪里?尚未大无畏的台湾女性 - 第五章


Guest article by KevinF

Kevin Fitzpatrick is copy editor and chief writer for Taiwan’s Yellow Fever, Foreign Moons, a blog managed by Shaun Bettinson. The blog explores Western-Taiwanese sexual and romantic relationships and sundry other cross-cultural matters.

Series Epigraph
“I want to tell her ‘Get over it.  And whatever you do, please don’t give us a third book about your relationship with your mother. Writing’s supposed to be cathartic, not fixating.’” – an American friend’s words after finishing Amy Tan’s second book, The Kitchen God’s Wife (1991)

Yellow Fever Foreign Moons

Artwork of Shena

Princesses Eternal or Extinction Burst?

Let me begin Part V by partly correcting a point stressed in Part IV: that young Taiwanese women contract princess disease foremost from older women.  I said that they especially got it from instruction from female teachers – that mostly PD is a reaction to being over-controlled and to being socialized into “feminine” roles. Columnist Dave at YFFM, however, in an upcoming article there, says that family female elders, not teachers, are the chief inculcators.  He suggests that PD is taught mostly by family:

Here’s what I have heard: Many women wait until the man has spent NT$100,000 on them before they give it up …

Seems this advice has been passed down from both grandmothers, who remember the tough years after 1949, and mothers, who cashed in during the boom years of the late 70s and the 80’s. Single women born in the 70s are now hitting and staring 40 in the face, and are likely enough to have their own money from good careers, but women born in the 80’s are 20-30-something, and accounting seems to them like a hell of a good idea. When they talk about freedom from their parents, maybe it sometimes means “It’s your turn to pick up the tab for my lifestyle.”

Anyway, whatever the etiology, Part IV of this series depicted the majority of young Taiwanese women as zealous carriers of princess disease.  Ed en Vadrouille sees them quite differently, though:

To smooth this transition to positions of power and independence, many women have adopted a recent Japanese import: high-pitched voice, pink handbags, and girlish poses – often going over-the-top with this stuff to a point most would consider caricature. This infantilisation of attitude is just there to hide the fact that they are becoming economically equal to men. This is essentially a parade of dependence and weakness to pretend that they are still the frail and poor things of yesteryear and thus to lure the traditional male chauvinist into believing that he is still getting the same deal.

Yes, yes – but a pretense of dependence hardly reflects independence.  If subterfuge is not just a sometimes-tool but a longtime approach, what power is this but that which night and darkness gives burglars?  Aren’t real personal power and independence achieved only by replacing the desire to control others with self-assertion and self-control?

Pigeons and princesses pecking frantically

Yet Ed may still have a point; to understand how, it’s important to remember the mutual support that cultural memes lend each other.  It’s true that many guys are playing the instrumental love game, too; they don’t carry princess’s purse in public to level distinctions between the sexes; they do it, rather, to carve out a role for themselves as protector of the dainty and delicate.

In assuming that women are weak and singularly in need of security, guys also presume rights to try to control: plenty try to tell their girlfriends how to dress; some call nightly to home phones to make sure their gal isn’t out; and, according to one smart university female, about 40% of university guys are not OK with their girlfriend having had sex before meeting them (despite knowing that the chance she hasn’t is 10% or less) – and it’s often impossible to guess which guys will harbor this attitude.  Arguably then, on average, young guys, as much girls, depend on princess disease to reassure themselves that nothing has changed.

Structurally, of course, the ancient patriarchy is still intact, too; and not just regarding a wife being expected to follow her mother-in-law.  It’s still males, not females, who share the inheritance in Taiwanese families (though daughters may be legally saddled with debts that their dead parents accrued while alive!).

Despite PD and intact structure, though, patriarchy is taking it on the chin.  Taiwanese women’s increasing economic independence and power has been noted by nearly all in Taiwanese society, and some men candidly admit that women are better workers – are, on average, more responsible, and can multi-task better.  Further, there’s Sandy standing up to her mother and R dumping his girlfriend for being a princess.  According to the high-school girl in Part IV, who along with her classmates makes outnumbered male classmates do all classroom chores, “Probably after university, we’ll meet more and more guys who don’t have time for serving us.  A lot of guys will keep doing it, but a lot of others will feel they’re too busy and won’t care.”

Superficially, then, the increase over the past ten years in the incidence of princess disease suggests a resurgence of social conservatism in Taiwanese society. Behavioral psychology, however, offers an alternative explanation: removing the economic need for women to conform to patriarchy – removing the stimulus — does not remove the conditioned desire for accustomed rewards.  When loss of rewards looms, the phenomenon of “extinction burst” comes into play: rather than taper off as the strength of the stimulus declines, efforts to obtain rewards redouble: the pigeon pecks harder in efforts to trigger the suddenly-problematic food reward.

Taiwanese women – and I mean mothers and grandmothers as much as princesses themselves — of course understand on some level that economic independence threatens to sweep away the psychological certainties of a social structure built on rigidly-defined roles and instrumental love.  An uptick in prevalence and vehemence of princess disease, a behaviorist would say, is thus a natural and expected response.  Reward this extinction-burst response and the behavior will continue.  Thwart it consistently and the behavior will cease.

The question is which will happen first: women no longer seeking the “reward” or men no longer supplying it?  Likely both social vectors will come into play, but my guess is that women, though princess disease yields them gains, will drive the change more because (a) some of them are still victims of the favoritism that Confucianism-derived instrumental love bestows on boys and (b) a lot of cognitive dissonance results from switching back and forth between PD and the hyper-responsible performance necessary to hold a better job in today’s globalized economy.  Princesses may weave nets a while longer, but eventually one, then another and another will break their looms.

If a Lysistrata emboldens them to do so, that is.

The museum and tradition

I found myself last fall in the Taichung Folk Park on a weekday with an attractive ex-student who would soon be heading to Australia for a year on a working holiday.  It was a sunny day of moderate temperature; the place was nearly deserted, and it was pleasant to walk around beneath tall trees in the clear November sunshine, wandering in and out of wooden reconstructions of haute-bourgeois Qing Dynasty houses.  In one house, we looked at a bedroom.  There was no one around; and no one was likely to happen by soon.  Though I had never kissed this girl, imaginings of concupiscent acts on the wood-canopied four-poster arose in my mind.

And subsided.  Though she was beautiful, polite, friendly, and kind – and though I liked her and cared about her — this girl was annoying the hell out of me.  She was seeking at every step to serve me; to please me; and to keep conversation going, as if the roof would fall in if she didn’t.  Even princess disease was better than this.

I began not kissing her but challenging her.  She and her boyfriend never had fights, she said; she couldn’t recall a single one in their years together.  This was unhealthy, I said; there could be no self-growth in this type of relationship anymore than in one where two people fight about the same things again and again.

I kept pushing, and she admitted she was terrified that her very-handsome boyfriend would leave her if she ever upset him.  I pushed further, and was surprised to see her eyes moistening.  Suddenly, she turned away from me, put a hand to her face, shook her head, and suppressed a sob.  “My mother …,” she said in a quaking voice. “She always controls me.”

I put a hand on her shoulder to reassure her.  I didn’t retract, though.  “Sometimes it’s nice to see girls cry,” I said.

“I’m a strong person, you know,” she said, still keeping herself turned away.

“I believe that,” I said.  “I believe you are.”

Then she strode away, head down, her hand still a visor over her eyes.

Four days later, I got an E-mail from her.  It said that she could never relax because she worried too much what others thought of her and that she wanted to change.  Thanking me for the push, she wrote “seems like a orientation of study abroad… ha ha  this time, i will tell myself- Fuck everybody thinking!! everything just let it go!”

I called her a couple days later to say that her E-mail had impressed me and to encourage her on her year abroad.

“Other foreign guys all tried to have sex with me,” she said.  “You didn’t.  Thank you.”

She laughed when I said maybe I wanted to now, too.  But I wondered if her newly-minted independence would last.  A couple days later she left, embarking on the adventure for which she had saved up for several years and had spent a year studying English full-time.  And a month later, she was back.  She had discovered she was pregnant – a consequence of her last night with her boyfriend in Taiwan.  She’s now married and soon will be a mother.

Unlucky coincidence?  Most would think so, but a family therapist would assume otherwise.  I would, too.  Coincidence doesn’t come close to explaining the frequency with which illness or accidents happen to those on the verge of change (or else to their family members who don’t want them to change).  And really: How hard is it to use protection? To quote an eloquent Canadian friend in Taiwan, “Nearly everyone sooner or later gets a glimmer that their life could be much more.  A door then appears before them, and they walk toward it.  They open the door and stand on the threshold, looking out at an uncertain world rife with possibility.  Then most step back from the threshold and close the door forever.”

“I’ll raise my hand”

So: a fish has returned to repair and keep weaving the net; in the classroom these days, though, I’m often enough seeing something receptive, fresh, and unafraid — an interest among some young women in going beyond museums and tradition.

Last week, I talked with two university girls I teach, pointing out to them the near-futility of Taiwanese parents’ hopes that their children will obtain stable and secure jobs in the economy of today and of the future.  The best career move a smart post-university unmarried young woman here could make, I suggested, is to read up on feminism and then be the first to stand up against the meme of daughters-in-law obeying and serving mothers-in-law.  “Write a book against the idea, then start an organization to fight against it: Won’t the first young woman who does this become famous, become a public figure for years – and attract an open-minded boyfriend, too?  I just don’t believe some other young women wouldn’t raise their hands, too, and say ‘I’m with you; I’m joining you.’”

Their eyes widened as I said this.

“I’ll join,” one said.  “I’ll raise my hand.”

“Me, too,” the other enthused.

Every meme has every other meme’s back.  Here, though, is the weak link.  For unmarried young women, many of whom plan to have no children if they marry, “following” a mother-in-law who may never be needed as a babysitter is a clear-cut lose-lose proposition.  Some pulses quicken at the prospect of taking down this meme.  And if young women take out wives “following” the mother-in-law, will princess disease and anachronistic patriarchy still be able to stand?

All that’s needed in is a Lysistrata.  Confusion sown by instrumental love and its henchman, the “harmony” value,” are the only things standing in the way of her appearing.

Next: Part VI: Different Cultures, Different Love? (I): “That’s Your Definition!”

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  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    I like how you explain the princess disease from behavioristic point of view.

    An uptick in prevalence and vehemence of princess disease, a behaviorist would say, is thus a natural and expected response. Reward this extinction-burst response and the behavior will continue.

    If this is so – then such behavior will persist even if the rewards are given randomly and not so often.

    It means that even if most men would be immune to the tricks of spoiled girls – it would be enough that few “weaker brothers” fall victims to princess tantrums and the whole concept of PD is justified.

  • http://www.shanghaidawei.com ziccawei

    Rest assured the Princess Disease has no intention of leaving Shanghai yet. Everyone’s trying to grab hold of the tiger tail and hold on as long as they can. And they are determined as hell, balls of steel these girls.

    :mrgreen:

  • http://michaelturton.blogspot.com Michael Turton

    “Treat me like I’m worth something” = “Princess disease.” I like that. What if it is compensation for distant fathers and Princeling brothers? After all, a lot of those girls get treated like scullery maids at home.

  • Ed en Vadrouille

    I can’t help thinking while reading this serie that a lot of what you and some of the YFFM posters call instrumental love is also the practice of interdependence for the sake of showing affection and care (‘come to pick me up under the rain’). I don’t see it as a cry for attention gongzhu bing style, but rather as a romantic must-do that every girl feels she needs to go through to ensure that her bf really likes her. In Flooyd’s post, the (intercultural?) miscommunication completely fudged it up though, and that shows a lot of girls use it as a guideline without totally understanding the point. In a way it shows that they, themselves, are looking for clues on how to “ride this relation” and echoes your points in this post.
    This interdependence is not something bad in my book, and clearly is an ‘evolutionary’ response to select proper males before being given away in marriage. It’s parallel to something I like a lot less: The idea of 房子車子票子.

    I think this difference in approach on this matter between myself and you/Floyd is fruit of our different cultural backgrounds. I was shocked to read how often North American posters look at comportments under a “how to use other people” light. To me it appeared as sad and cynical. To you guys (as far as i understand) as realistic.
    Thus I can’t help but see this specific issue under a different, almost kinder, light (and I, for one, have certainly been influenced by having mostly been in relationships with Taiwanese girls rather than other nationalities). This is where i believe that your analysis, and YFFM’s, can gain from voices from other cultures, to reflect a different light on the “foreigners’ analysis” of Taiwan (on a side note, some of the comments in the recent extramarital relationships post of LoveLoveChina could do with the same…).

  • Bob

    You do know that Amy Tan is not only American, but CHINESE-American, right? I don’t understand why you take a handful of personal observations and conclude that the majority of Taiwanese women suffer from princess disease. Hint: the type of people we meet and interact with the most are really a reflection of ourselves. Want to meet women who aren’t self-centered with mommy issues? Think about your own shortcomings, like your self-confessed tendency to perv on students and whether or not you enjoy falling back on lazy generalizations when talking about an ENTIRE COUNTRY. I mean, I know Taiwan is a small place, but it’s really not that hard to embrace the complexity of its population and culture. If you take a critical look at yourself with a view to self-improvement (and perhaps take a few courses on REAL cultural anthropology and behavorial psychology instead of making shit up), then I guarantee you, you will magically meet nicer women.

  • Kevin

    Crystal: If the great majority of guys are immune to PD tactics, then a lot of women will either have to change or go without, no? Also, I think most women everywhere are oriented toward liking and respecting guys who don’t play to these tactics. I think it’s (a) the “comparison factor” among women, which will on average be stronger among those raised on instrumental love, coupled with (b) conformity accentuated by the “harmony” value, which gets so many younger women to enter the Princess Sweepstakes.

    Ziccawei: You’re really piquing my curiosity about Shanghai. I’m sure PD in Taiwan is nothing in comparison.

    Michael: I’ve mentioned several times in the series the favoritism towards sons. I’m sure distant fathers often factors in, but I hear guys saying their dads are/were distant as often (or more) than I hear girls saying this. Anyway, love the “scullery maid” equation.

    Ed: It’s interesting to have this difference highlighted and discussed. I wasn’t that aware of it previously. Maybe the position I’m coming from is largely North American, but I doubt it is limited ONLY to that continent; I’ve met guys from the British Isles (Brits more than Irish and Scots [Who knows anything about the Welsh? I sure don’t.]) and Australians, too, who have this attitude. So: maybe an Anglo thing?

    But, while I’m sure you’re right that some are fundamentally cynical in their stance against what many NAers and some others often call “codependency,” “control,” and “using,” I don’t feel that I am and I’m sure many others don’t feel that they are, either. My best understanding of this stance is that it’s a yield of sixties idealism which was a reaction to/was formed by the relative conformity and male chauvinism of the fifties; (b) feminism; (c) (more important) Eastern mysticism; (d) (most important) the particular thread of German idealism that runs from Kant through Neitzche to universalist psychology, meaning Freud, Jung, Frankl, Fromm, and others. This German idealism is not American at all, said Alan Bloom in a book with a title you might like: The Closing of the American Mind.

    For me personally, I’m against any preconceived notions of “should” – against the idea of anyone laying spoken or implicit demands on someone else from the Eastern mysticism viewpoint foremost (with psychology lending strong support). And this, I feel, is strongly idealistic and positive. It’s the ultimate respect for others and for self, I believe.

    Have you heard of Anthony de Mello? He was Indian, trained as a psychologist and practiced for twenty years, and was, further, a Jesuit. The current pope lobbied to have him posthumously excommunicated in 1998 for views based on the ideas of Krishnamurti and Buddha. “These are not the teachings of the Catholic Church,” JR wrote.

    This book by de Mello gave me a whole new way of seeing life and relationships. His views on “love” are on pages 8-9:

    http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf

    Fromm’s somewhat different views I like, too, though.

  • Kevin

    Bob: Maybe time to up the dosage on your anti-psychotic prescription?

    1.Of course I know that Amy Tan is not Taiwanese-American. Your point?

    2.I nowhere, in Part V or in earlier parts, said that the majority of Taiwanese women suffer from PD. I said that the majority of university girls – and perhaps the majority of women in their twenties – have PD. Why did I say this? Because this is what I was told by Taiwanese students, both male and female. Not scientific enough for you? Then how about supplying me with money to do formal research? Sheesh! How much time do you have, and how much are you going around with an open mind asking questions?

    3.How does what I’m writing lead you to conclude that something about me is resulting in my meeting girls with PD? I mean, I’m very familiar with that Jung-derived argument and agree with it wholeheartedly. But all Western guys here MEET them – because of job factors and cross-cultural factors – and pub factors. The question is do I date them/hang out with them? The answer is no. And do I know Taiwanese girls/women without PD, and do I hang out with them? Yep. Don’t get you at all on this point.

    4.Can you read? I wrote that she was my ex-student, not my student. But if she had been my student, then either you don’t live in Taiwan, haven’t lived here, or are clueless; otherwise you would know that most Taiwanese think it’s OK for a teacher to date a student if the school is outside the formal education system, which mine is (I teach in an adult cram school). Generally, I don’t agree with them on that. And obviously, you don’t, either. So why don’t you take it up with most Taiwanese instead of launching an unfounded personal attack on me?

    5.Somewhere in these five pieces I specified that I was talking about urban (not rural) Taiwan. And I think I’ve taken pains to use terms like “some” “most” and “the majority.” Obviously, I’m not talking about the entire country. What’s your agenda here in twisting my words?

    6.I don’t see how anything I’ve said denies that there’s a complexity to the culture in Taiwan. Only black-and-white thinking assumes that pointing out perceived general characteristics is a denial of complexity.

    7.You’ve set up a straw man who needs self-improvement (according to you). I happen to believe in self-improvement, and I think it all begins with ceasing trying to tell others what to do. Hope you get my point, but I’m not expecting that you will.

    8.What is the “REAL” cultural anthropology and behavioral psychology you’re talking about? Your only “concreteness” in your comment is distortion of my words and ad hominem argument. There are lots of approaches to anthropology, but yes, of course, only your favorite is real. But maybe you do actually understand something here: I’m not that interested in anthropological stances of any type; it’s psychology that I’m trying to bring to bear in these articles. You want to say psychology is not universal? Then shouldn’t you be getting to work on your long, long, very long article that says so and that thinks of and addresses in advance many possible counter-arguments? Or, as I suggested above, up your dosage?

    9.Sorry for that cheap shot, but I think you’re being extremely rude here in granting yourself such liberties with my words. You’re saying I wrote stuff that I didn’t write. My arguments here are fallible. I’m very willing to correct them as I go. But when you go changing words, you make a mockery of efforts to understand things.

    10.I meet enough cool Taiwanese women. No magic is necessary for that. But I haven’t yet met a real Lysistrata here — a woman who has set to work on tearing up the net. Have you? No. And who’s more likely to meet her first: you or me? Anyway, do me a favor and stop reading my writing as a lament for myself about women. I’m no lion-heart, but if you impute that kind of smallness to me, I say it’s some form of your own smallness that you’re projecting.

    11.Sorry to anyone reading for the length of this reply, but why should the Internet be a place where people get away with being rude in ways they would never dare to be (because they would instantly get shot down if they were) in real life?

  • Bob

    “Maybe time to up the dosage on your anti-psychotic prescription?”
    I would write up a 700 word response explaining why that’s an ad hominem attack, but I’m too busy telling all the Taiwanese people I know to keep their daughters the fuck away from Kevin Fitzpatrick. And, yes, if I met you in real life and you spewed the same nonsense above to me, then I would repeat everything I said to you, because you needed to hear it, buddy. Looks like I struck a chord with you ;-)

  • Kevin

    Too much wierdness for me, Bob. See ya.

  • John Vico

    Thanks for your kind comments on Part IV, Kevin.

    All of this is to one degree or another anecdotal, so it is easy for everybody to poke holes in everybody else’s theories of what’s going on here. I believe what you are doing here and on your website contributes a lot to helping foreigners understand life in Taiwan, helping Taiwanese to understand how foreigners perceive life in Taiwan, and even helping Taiwanese and foreigners to understand themselves. Bob’s criticism seems misguided to me, not only in principle, but also because I almost always feel that I see the same patterns in such a decisive majority of relationships here.

    I think the thing that interests me (at least at this stage of my life in Taiwan) is not so much the princess disease as a particular form that I’ll call “intellectual/cultural princess disease”. These are the women who seem vivacious, independent, bright, well-travelled, etc and who still, sooner or later, reveal that they are just a shiny, new intellectual body built on to the same old chassis (I hope that’s the metaphor I’m looking for). This is a phenomenon I have found both in Taiwan and Japan, where it seems to be even more exaggerated. If this is true, I wonder how much realistic hope we can hold out for the Taiwanese situation.

  • Kevin

    John: A British friend remarked to me about a decade ago that enough Taiwanese girls really do open up and grow as persons if they spend a few months or more living overseas. “But not long after they get back to Taiwan, this episode in their lives shrinks and becomes just another accessory in a life dedicated to swapping name cards and comparing cell phone brands.”

  • Ed en Vadrouille

    John, do you mean that they can’t help but being ethno-centered to the very inner core?
    I can vouch for that. I studied in about 8 different universities in 4 different countries, and when abroad noticed that Asians were often the ones that took the longest to show change from being exposed to new foreign influences.
    I’ve seen EU guys coming over to the UK for just a 1 year exchange and completely altering their life plans from this experience, going on to live in different countries, and changing career paths. But for Asians it’s a different story. Most of the TW friends that I’ve know over a decade since we first met abroad have a hard time to this day speaking in english, and they have gone back home and done the career their parents wanted, while marrying the girl that was alright to date according to their relatives.

  • John Vico

    Kevin and Ed, thanks for the comments. To be honest, I am not entirely sure what I mean!

    I think what I’m angling at has to do with the notion of individuality. From what I can gather, in Chinese and, more broadly, “Confucian” societies, there is a need for a person to develop both a public persona or series of personae built on group identity and ‘self-sacrifice’ on the one hand, and an interior mechanism(?) to manage these personae. I am not sure how conscious they themselves are aware of this dynamic, or how they interpret it when they are. What strikes me, though, is that this interior aspect is, by necessity, a lone wolf, someone who must trust no one and be bold and cunning in how they manipulate situations. They must always be conscious of the danger that one group or another may attempt to expose them for being ‘insincere’ in their commitment, especially in terms of filial piety.

    I think this is probably more exaggerated in women because of their status in society. They are more vulnerable and therefore must be more cunning. Among women who tend to be less cosmopolitan, they have gone a long way towards suppressing this individuality or consciousness of it, although it seems obvious from a birds-eye view. Among the women who are more cosmopolitan, however, they are conscious of the need or desire to finally shed all these personae, and they make an effort to consciously assert this individuality, or to imitate people who seem unencumbered by any sense of responsibility–especially when they travel abroad. But, the creature they have let loose is often the same aspect of themselves that had been charged with managing all the different faces they had to maintain, and it tends to be self-consciously outrageous or “free” and, yet, just as insecure as it has ever been.

    Over time, they tend to moderate, finding a way to balance all the personae they believe to be necessary to live what they have surmised to be a “modern” or “free” lifestyle, but none of their experiences have suggested to them the life of the free-willing individual who is capable of entering into a relationship based on something other than a relatively materialistic calculation.

    To paint in even more stereotypical or simplistic colors, I see women who, on a hot, sunny day, cover every inch of their body, except their eyes, to protect themselves from the sun. Then, there are the more cosmopolitan women of the “hipster burqa” brigades (i.e., oversized sunglasses) who expose everything but their eyes. And, everybody else fits somewhere in the middle, but however intelligent and cosmopolitan she might be, the same dynamics are working in each case, an exhausting, elaborate, fearful juggling of identities (cute, conservative, modern, literate, sexual, political, wild, thoughtful, etc).

    This comment is already too long, so I guess I’ll finish it by saying that this is not a fully worked out theory, but just me trying to staple together some hunches and observations. I am not arguing that this is an exhaustive account of anything nor that much of what I say could not be applied to men or other cultures. But, I am doubtful about any highly developed and balanced sense of individuality emerging in this part of the world on a broad basis, if for no other reason than it took thousands of years for the West to piece such a worldview together and that it requires a host of values, institutions, economic relationships, etc for everything to come together. Having said that, I am somewhat doubtful about the Western notion of individuality and romantic love, and it is possible that there is something of substance to the traditional models that needs to be incorporated into our individualism.

    Clear as mud, I hope!

  • Kevin

    This insight is gold, John:

    “But, the creature they have let loose is often the same aspect of themselves that had been charged with managing all the different faces they had to maintain, and it tends to be self-consciously outrageous or “free” and, yet, just as insecure as it has ever been.”

    I’ve something to relate that, in one of the more interesting ways one could conceive of, circumstantially supports this take. Matters of privacy and respect are involved, though, so I’ll say it in a private E-mail to you.

    Reagarding “…if for no other reason than it took thousands of years for the West to piece such a worldview together and that it requires a host of values, institutions, economic relationships, etc for everything to come together”: You may be right, and if I had to bet any significant sum of money, I’d bet that you are. And along those lines, Jung said seventy or so years ago that there’s no hope from the East for the establishment of societies that teach/esteem the value of “realization of the unfolding self” and that the West was still hundreds of years away from achieving such societies.

    I do wonder, though, if the Internet, ease of travel, and global markets and job markets are not reducing this gap, with (some of) the East moving forward in this regard and the West stuck in neutral. Are some Taiwanese youth today different? I can’t put my finger on it, but I get the sense a real change is possible, as I allude to at the end of Part VI.

    Anyway, thanks for the great comment. It’s comments like yours here, along with some great comments from others, that have made worthwhile the hard work of writing this series.

    And finally, below is a link to post on our blog that is consonant with your focus and views (Sorry, don’t know how to condense the link. Crystal?)

    http://yffm.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/monday-june-21st-6%e6%9c%8821%e6%97%a5-%e6%98%9f%e6%9c%9f%e4%b8%80-interview-a-westerner%e2%80%99s-view-of-more-open-taiwanese-girls-%e8%a8%aa%e8%ab%87%ef%bc%9a%e5%a4%96%e7%b1%8d%e4%ba%ba/

  • Kevin

    A further thought, John:

    How long can societies that are open to the above-mentioned global forces maintain through their institutions memes for which there is little or no scientific evidence? Fundamental Chinese memes, though they have religious overtones, are said by the Chiense philosophical tradition to be “natural.” What happens as it is progressively and more strongly shown that they are only natural in that options open to cultures all exist within the realm of possibility — and that they are odd choices in some cases, that they seem to be at odds with scientific evidence?

  • John Vico

    Thanks, Kevin.

    As for the prospects of things changing, I am skeptical. Or, at least I am skeptical about them moving in an orderly, progressive direction. The crescendo of classical Western civilization was caesarism and Christianity. In my opinion, if one had been around the time of, say, the height of Athenian culture and been able to compare the scientific and philosophical thought and culture of Greece to any other civilization at the time, you’d say, wow, democracy, geometry, logic, rule of law, freedom–when people hear about this, they’re going to love it. But, it never moved East and when it moved West, it did not bring about a further revolution in civilization (or at least one we would anticipate). Apparently, Christianity was in some way necessary to prepare the ground for a broader form of civilization based on Greek values, but if that was the case, it did a pretty good job of eradicating the finest achievements of classical civilization in the process.

    My first employer in Taiwan was a computer science professor at a national university. I asked him early on about the burning of paper money across the street, and he laughed in a benevolent, knowing way and said it was just a silly superstition. But, a few weeks later, he recommended that I refrain from taking a short-cut back from the country at night because of all of the graveyards along the way and the possibility of running into ghosts. He once told me to stay out of the rain after 10pm because of its negative spiritual effects (I had been spotted crossing the street without an umbrella during a light drizzle). I also got a few lectures about the wily ways of women and how some women were (literally, I now believe he meant) demons in disguise. He was by all appearances friendly, successful, and had a happy family life. He was not, outside of these kinds of comments, an obvious crank. I was generally doubtful but polite in my response to these kinds of ideas, since I usually wait a long time before I conjure up (or am overcome by) a reaction, and I was aware I was in a new culture. But, when he mentioned his theory that the day was hottest around 1-2pm because spirits were most active at 1-2am (the assumption being that the day should be hottest at noon), I made an analogy with an oven to show that natural explanations would probably suffice, and for some reason, that belief of his stood out more than any other in my mind.

    I guess my point in mentioning him is that this was someone whom you would otherwise suspect of being a partisan of scientific reason, but for him, science was merely one of many legitimate techniques in dealing with the natural order and not the most important. And, he once commented about Westerners’ strange predilection for trying to systematize all knowledge, which struck him as obviously hopeless and psychologically unbalanced. I do think that at some point or other, if there is to be a move into original research and theorizing and social/economic development, a more scientific/logical orientation will have to find its way into their psyche, but contrary to all of my aspirations for humanity, this other way of looking at things is surprisingly tenacious. And, Western history suggests (to me, at least) that the “Greek way” is not the inevitable victor. There are still enough creationists running around, I think, to make the outcome doubtful everywhere.

  • Kevin

    I’m going to have to think awhile on this one, John. Impressive.

  • Kevin

    Well John, first, I think all discrete progress is usually either followed by a backlash or else it simply derails. Yet overall, in fits and starts, there is general progress — unless one considers the expense to the planet and how the planet will repay the species, which, perhaps, is the most important thing to consider.

    Not only do most humans, one way or another, seem bent on escaping from freedom, but the species as a whole does, too, most of the time. In general, whether as a species, as cultures, or as individuals, we’re very short-sighted. There are plenty who take the proactive long view in lesser ways, but few who do so in larger ways. Middle-term views in pursuit of self-interests seem to be as far as most are willing to stretch/challenge themselves – and I wouldn’t say that most are even willing to make that effort, either. And, of course, that pursuit of our own interests could be destructive not only to others but to ourselves, too, in the long-term does not factor into the calculations of the more predatory of us. And that minority, because we are a hierarchical species to a large-enough degree (which explains our willingness to default on thinking), is able to wreak tremendous damage.

    Game theory probably explains all of this in some very cool way. I should study it sometime, I guess.

    But in the lesser scheme of things and regarding the possibility of smaller, albeit possibly very temporary progress, I would be wary of letting a middle-aged or older person serve as a barometer for Taiwan. The Internet has made these recent generation gaps far larger than anything Taiwan has seen before. Youth power seems to count now in Taiwan in a way and to a degree unimagined just 3-4 years ago. I don’t think this growth in youth power will stop soon.

    And in the world today, the Internet and cell phones ARE spreading the Big D even as you and I read and write. And perhaps eradicating the finest achievements of Enlightenment civilization (Romantic civilization, too) in the process! The escape-from-freedom types are still everywhere, same as they’ve always been, and the Internet is probably as much or more a force for massaging the EFF tendency as it is for forms of liberation.

    Still I wonder, though: at least until resource scarcity hits us full force, is history as reliable a guide to the present and future as it was in the pre-Internet age?

  • John Vico

    I don’t think I would disagree with any of that. In this space, at any rate–although I have my hunches and suspicions–I wouldn’t attempt to predict the future. My point is more simply that we, i.e. anybody who takes a modern/progressive point of view, have taken the notions that our view of progress is progress and that it is virtually inevitable for granted.

    So, when I try to place myself at the period of the height of Greek culture, it seems a no-brainer to say that this is what everybody will be up to sooner or later. But, it wasn’t. Greek culture made its way East, but it didn’t take democracy along. We never hear of anyone ever mentioning even the possibility of democracy until the Renaissance in Italy. Which is not to say that progress did not occur; rather that progress took a form that nobody would have suspected (e.g., extreme monotheism and feudalism) and that, in the West, Christianity was a proxy for democratic progressivism.

    Nor did I mean to turn anyone into the spokesperson for Taiwanese culture. I merely meant to make a certain individual a representative for a human propensity to subordinate scientific rationality to spiritual or emotional concerns and to do so to such an extent that science is seen as something merely instrumental. In Asia, we find this in the movement to accept and adopt Western “methods” while preserving Asian “values”.

    In other words, if one wants to argue that history is progressive, then a lot of explaining becomes necessary. All of a sudden, you find it necessary to regard things that you would consider regressive today as “necessary evils” in their historical context (which is a dangerous moral argument), such as the gap between Athens and the modern world. On the other hand, if you look at that period as the Dark Ages more or less, then I think you would have to accept that we could have another Dark Age.

    As for the internet, I don’t think I am underestimating its power, but I am not sure if we can divide history into the world before the internet and the world with the internet. And, I am not sure that it is an inevitably progressive device. It is a two-way street, I think. It permits us the power to reach out to the world in ways once unimaginable, but it also allows the world to reach for us.

    My hunch is that we are exploiting nature in such a way that we are fueling not only “economic progress” and “development” but also our rather blind optimism about an indistinct future. When I compare the unprecedented nature of this exploitation alongside the unprecedented nature of the internet, I think I would regard the former as more significant than the latter. I would go a step further and say that all of our accomplishments over the course of the last century, good and bad, have been based on this exploitation, and so I am doubtful about taking our brief moment in history as something we can extrapolate from. What would things look like if we hadn’t taken this exploitative route (assuming it could have been avoided)? I don’t know that either, although I am extremely curious!