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What I learned from Chinabounder

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ChinaBounder

Today I want to make the review of one site which made a lot of buzz when it was active (it hasn’t been updated for about two years now). I am talking about infamous blog “Sex and Shanghai” created by Chinabounder. For those who are not familiar with it – this is a collection of diary-like posts written by an anonymous teacher of English language (who later revealed his identity) in one of Shanghai’s universities. In his blog Chinabounder described in juicy details how he seduced multiple Chinese girls most of whom were his former students. However, differently from other authors of similar content Chinabounder tended to mix the explicit pornography with philosophizing about characteristics of Chinese people, Chinese politics and other topics.

To say the truth I have written the initial draft of this post long time ago (immediately after stumbling upon “Sex in Shanghai” for the first time). But at that time I was too angry to be objective. And I didn’t want to follow the footsteps of Zhang Jiehai – professor of psychology – who wrote an open letter on his site calling for a human flesh search of Chinabounder (which very well might end up in lynch if he wouldn’t flee China in time). Also I am not interested in psychological analysis of Chinabounder’s personality.
Because I found few curious thoughts in his blog and they must be judged without any relation to their author’s morality or mental state.

First thing that caught my attention were Chinabounder’s revelations regarding the nature of attraction between Western men and Chinese girls. Without trying to describe it in my own words, let me quote the whole passage:

It is — perhaps most importantly – the fact that Chinese woman is not from our culture and does not, in general, understand all the nuances and subtleties of our language and our behavior.

Now, sure, true love, two hearts beating as one, perfect understanding, total communication and all that stuff. Fuck that; that is not what guys want. This is pure horror to us; we most emphatically do not want a woman sharing every aspect of our lives, seeing into us, knowing us.

Dating someone from another culture gives us a safety zone, a barrier, so that we can keep our lives, our sense of self, our secrecies. Chinese woman will never be able to read us like white woman and that is why we want her.

Now this is not purely cynical; for, yes, we can love Chinese woman, honor her and commit to her and even (some of us, at least) be faithful to her. But we still have that buffer, that exclusion zone of secrecy where she cannot enter. No matter how married we may be, how deeply we may love Chinese woman, we are still more single and more ourselves than we would be with white woman. And this is why white woman remains invisible to us. Why would we want her, with her big body and her perfect ability to see what we really are? And so our reasons for chasing Chinese woman have some depth to them.

No matter what your emotional reaction is after reading this, one can’t deny that this guy has a good writing style and sounds quite persuasive. At least I do believe that these were the reasons why HE was after Chinese girls. But I really want to know if he was right using the word “WE”? Is his reasoning true for other Western men? Are you indeed afraid to be too close and intimate with your woman and need the space and safety barrier?

Another statement which Chinabounder repeats multiple times throughout his blog is the dullness of Chinese men comparing them to cold fishes. Understandably these kinds of sentiments were the ones that made Professor Zhang Jiehai especially angry (in fact, some time later he published a book on this topic titled “I am angry”). Chinabounder constantly stressed the difference between the characteristics of Chinese women and Chinese men. He even claimed that every time when some of his students were finding him on MSN (which was easy since he was writing his e-mail on the class board in the end of a lesson), it didn’t take him long to guess if the student was male or female: according to him Chinese men were all alike without the slightest glimpse of individuality while every Chinese girl was special and different and just had to be “allowed” to open up.

And without hiding the selfishness of his motives, Chinabounder proudly saw himself as liberator of suppressed Chinese girls. A teacher of English language in daytime, he was switching his role to a teacher of sex on nights.

I believe that Chinese women are creatures of passion, eroticism and desire, of creativity and joy in bed. But they are taught to believe all this is wrong, that it is dirty, that they should just lie back, in the dark, for the two or three minutes it takes the average Chinese guy to come. They are taught it, I say, and try to live up to it; but such is their passionate nature that they never truly believe this lesson. And so one does not have to delve very deep to bring this true nature out. A few words, some tender care, a joyful, open attitude to sex and the woman will turn from a squib to firecracker.

If this is true – then dating Chinese girls is just an ego-boosting experience for men who are not interested in equal relationships. Should I wonder now why open-minded and educated Chinese girls become leftovers? Even Woody Allen who married his stepdaughter Soon-Yi Previn (oops – Asian girl – but it’s just coincidence, right?) upon being asked whether their age difference (he was 56 and she was 22) was conducive to “a healthy, equal relationship” answered that equality is not necessarily a requirement in a relationship and added: “The heart wants what it wants. There’s no logic to those things. You meet someone and you fall in love and that’s that.

Well, here is one more lesson that Chinabounder willingly gives to his readers. It addresses Chinese girls who think that they have found their foreign prince.

I have various friends involved with foreign guys, and at the beginning of their relationships the woman has told me ‘This foreign guy is different.’ But he never is. We all lie and cheat and chase.

Trying not to be angry, Crystal Tao

  • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

    Wow Crystal, I don’t even know where to begin; so I’ll let others say leave more specific comments and more insightful thoughts, and just say that this guy is a loser bigtime in my opinion, and his immoral antics, compounded by his exhibitionism in wanting to tell everyone about them, help me understand what anti-Western (especially anti-Western men) feelings there are in China.

    Amazing.

    I will quickly add that his comments about wanting/not wanting closeness are drivel and B.S. — I know quite a few Americans in relationships with Asian women, and none of them would agree with this point of view.

    Tim (trying not to be angry as well). :lol:

  • Ricky

    I must say, it is one thing for a man to label himself such as chinabounder has with his actions and words, but it is a whole other thing for a man say ‘all’ men are this way. For I am not. Yes, his abuse the chinese culture for his own physical satisfaction is very enraging. Having him lump myself into his ‘class’ of men is equally so, for I am definitly not in this class of men. While it is true, there are some men in america who would probably envy this man and support his actions, I am not. This type of man would not get along very well in my part of the country where good morals are required if you wish not to be harrased/beaten up/ run out of town. I was raised to respect women equally as men, and respect life in general regardless of color,race or origin. So coming across men like this, disgusts me quite a bit.
    Ricky

  • Justin Liu

    He was taking advantage of disparate socio-economic status,and exploiting the Chinese desire to get ahead in life. Woman seeking to marry up is not a new phenomenon in life nor is it confined to China. Just think back to the 19th century american industrial heiresses marrying into British aristocracy. So we shouldn’t blame the women in this case, given how hard life is for some of them, it is understandable that they would have sought an easy leg up in life. Besides in what country is status and money not important in a relationship? How long into a conversation at the bar do girls here start asking probing questions. What do you do? Where do you live? etc etc. It’s all part of normal courtship.

    This guy is distasteful but hardly worthy of the uproar we saw. He obviously got a kick out of poking fun at Chinese insecurities, why give him the pleasure? Also Chinese men are not the custodians of Chinese woman. We don’t have the right to decide for woman what choices/mistakes to make (with the except of the students he slept with, that’s different an issue for the school to deal with). A Tempest in a teapot.

    Glad to see you’re writing again, Crystal.

  • http://www.speakingofchina.com Jocelyn

    Great post, Crystal — nice to see an evenhanded approach to a very divisive, hot topic.

    I think you encapsulated the problem w/ Chinabounder perfectly:

    If this is true – then dating Chinese girls is just an ego-boosting experience for men who are not interested in equal relationships.

    Reminds me of a book review for The East, the West and Sex (by Richard Bernstein) on Slate (by Johann Hari):

    Bernstein’s view of the role of women in his story of cultural and sexual collision is nuanced to the point of being myopic. He is describing men who went to foreign places, toppled their leaders, stole their resources, and then tossed their women a few pennies to spread their legs….This newfound sexual freedom was freedom for men alone. The women involved were often literally enslaved or imprisoned against their will in harems and brothels or kept down by systematic violence if they tried to reject their role as sex toys for men.

  • http://chinahopelive.net Joel

    Most foreigners I know look down on people like Chinabounder (there are plenty of wannabe Chinabounders; I work with some), saying that they are losers who aren’t good enough (or are too intimidated by) women in their own culture so they go to China or some other country where being a foreigner automatically makes them more desirable and women are willing to compromise themselves for the chance to get ahead. These guys are full of disrespect toward everyone, especially women, and especially non-Western women; it’s like a kind of racism.

    I think he’s right in the way he talks about how a cross-cultural relationship allows these guys to be less emotionally/psychologically involved. In other words, the communication barriers make it easier for guys like this to use women. That was perceptive on his part.

    It’s not that Western men are all like this. Most people I know see Chinabounder-types as a special kind of scum. But China (and other similar countries), with its easy English teaching jobs and available women, attracts an unusually large number of Chinabounders.

  • http://www.sarajaaksola.com Sara

    This is the first time I heard about this blog Sex and Shanghai. I think I’m happy not to read it because even few sentences from it made me furious. How could he say those things of Chinese people, both girls and boys. But I do know this type of men who want to use Chinese girls because in foreign country they don’t have to take it too seriously. Some of them have their girlfriends back home and another girlfriend in China.

  • Ziccawei

    All you guys are pathetic. A bunch of snivelling little creeps.
    The reason he said ‘we’ is because it mostly is TRUE. There are thousands of foreign guys in China who are here mostly to get laid. If it wasn’t their initial reason for coming to China, it soon becomes that after living here for some time. ChinaBounder had the balls to say it, and say it clearly and as it is.
    I would say much of what he wrote on his blog was highly accurate, both about Chinese women and their attitudes to sex and about Chinese people in general.
    That Shrimp guy, Professor, he showed himself to be truly pathetic. Good job at making yourself look like a total dick, son.
    It’s interesting that the owner of this site should have such issue with ChinaBounder now that she has a foreign boyfriend, soon to be husband. Where’s her loyalty to Chinese men?
    Whatever….
    Dumbest thread ever so far on this site.

    :mrgreen:

    • Rick Hill

      Elle oh elle! What kind of puss says “Sniveling little creeps”? Go to China to get away from Mother? Trying to justify, by saying thousands, your sad little world? So, you are not attractive enough to easily get laid back home and not being able to make up for it by having character and a real personality, you are the big stud in a country where your being different go a long way? Every country has women who can be manipulated, you just can’t do it back home. Far as Ms Crystals relationship, I’ve seen a photo of the two of them and her boyfriend is as attractive as she is. I’m sure when you go on dates people think “He must have money.”. Enjoy growing old alone but make sure you keep a lot of viagra on hand as well as cash….

      • Ziccawei

        Don’t give me any of your half-arsed assumptions. I’m not one of these barrell-gutted Australians you find in Shanghai sports bars surrounding himself with bar sluts.
        But to imagine or believe that many guys do not come to China and treat it as their own personal Disneyland with Chinese girls is ridiculous.
        ChinaBounder just said what many MANY guys talk about in bars. Getting laid with lots of Chinese guys, as many as they can. The difference being that he may have done exactly that while the fat Aussie guys in the bars didn’t. Unless they paid for it. Quite likely.
        And Crys is correct. Most other Chinese websites – ShanghaiExat is a classic example – have many posters talking about Chinese women (‘99% of Chinese women are whores’ was the all time classic) in a derogatory fashion and about China in general.
        ChinaBounder was different. His writing was fairly intelligent and well thought out. He may have said things that Chinese people don’t like, but I find that many Chinese people love to pull the victim card.

        :mrgreen:

      • anon

        shaming language……loser

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      Dear Ziccawei,

      I am not surprised with the contents of your comment, only a little bit surprised with its tone, but who am I to judge you? :smile:

      I have only one question for you and would be grateful for your response: what exactly in my post made you think that I am not loyal to Chinese men?
      Reason for this question is simple: I am trying to improve my writing style and it is important for me to correctly express myself.

      Thanks.

      • Ziccawei

        Ok, so you have a foreign boyfriend and I am sure he is just wonderful. But tell me this. How many times in ChongQing have you had sideways glances from local CQ guys as you walk down the street with your boyfriend? How many remarks have you half-heard? No doubt you’re going to tell me the opposite but if your parents have met him did they speak to you afterwards (in the kind of scene that might be from a Woody Allen movie) and say ‘but wouldn’t you like a nice Chinese boy, honey?’.

        What about this – what is there was a Chinese guy in England, writing a blog called EnglishBounder? The same content – him writing about getting laid with English girls. It wouldn’t get blocked. It wouldn’t have some neurotic professor-nutcase trying to have him hanged from a tree. English people would not be necessarily offended.

        • Darren

          Just because that sort of behavior is acceptable in Western society doesn’t mean it is everywhere else nor does it mean the rest of the world is obligated to change their values to accommodate the decaying moral values of the West.

          Standing up for women is called honor – a virtue that you obviously lack. While I wouldn’t say that China is entirely with honor, they obviously have far more of it than you given the way you view women.

          • Ziccawei

            How do I view women, Darren?

            For one, I don’t think that they are completely without any value or worth once they reach 30.

            Oh, but in China they do.

          • anon

            white knighting pussy

        • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

          Thanks for explanation.

          If I understand you correctly, Ziccawei, you are saying that my loyalty is measured by how I justify the expectations of people whom I even don’t know (be it an abstract group of Chinese men, passersby or anybody else)?
          Well… in such case I don’t see it as a necessary virtue, and there are not so many people to whom I want to be loyal.

          I do, however, listen to the opinion of my parents. Thankfully, they do respect my choice.

          One last thing – saying something bad or disrespectful about Chinese men is not my style. But if someone interprets me in such way – then, sorry – it’s not my problem… :cool:

          • Ziccawei

            But clearly your feelings are hurt by this ChinaBounder guy’s blog. You said so yourself that it made you angry. Why? It’s just some guy (probably one of the many laowai losers in China) that writes about having sex with Chinese girls. Why do you care so much?
            That’s why I raised the issue of a Chinese guy doing the same in England. One, if he did, English people mostly would not be so pissed off as Chinese people are with ChinaBounder – in fact, for the most part they would probably find it funny and it would become very popular. I doubt very much whether it would be blocked or be the cause for a witch hunt. Second, I think many English guys would feel that the Chinese guy would be welcome to any English girls. Haha!
            I just can’t help but feel that ANYTHING negative, no matter how slight, anyone says about China or Chinese people and many Chinese people bring out the victim card. Even the govt do it – ‘you have hurt the feelings of the Chinese people’ – what kind of statement is that from a post-millenium govt of today? It’s hilarious.
            Rather than get bent of of shape by what some overweight loser English teacher writes in his blog about shagging his students after getting them drunk, why not concentrate on the real issues to hand? Like getting your boyfriend to make sure it’s eggs sunny-side-up when he brings you breakfast in bed?

            :mrgreen:

            • North European

              How much some of you guys seem to dislike Ziccawai’ comments regarding this topic I have to chime in and agree, and sorry but few of the western guys here seems to still be on a honeymoon with China and take a “political correct” stance from ChinaBounder as he would be totally wrong, yes he is harsh and right out rude, but not totally off.

              I myself have wondered many times about the Chinese sensitivity:

              “why is it that such a big country as China
              has a people with such a little self confidence as a banana republic?”

              Let’s dig into couple of few things regarding the sensitivity and what could be behind it…
              I also one time had an interesting internet chat with a Chinese girl in China and the talks led quickly into the views between China and West.
              I told her if you Chinese would talk any trash and harshly criticize a North European person or country we would be just calm and consider what you said without raising our voice.
              She was totally baffled, because this is THE culprit with the Chinese people, an utter sensitivity to negative criticism from outside.

              This leads me to another thing, it is said Chinas history is 5000 years old, but sometimes I wonder if it isn’t actually only 50 years old leading back to Mao Ze Dong’s introducing a new era when a whole nation became rectified and “brainless”, thus also made the contemporary Chinese citizens so sensitive?

              And the Chinese govt. still continue into these days keeping people behind a curtain.
              For example I chat with a 22 year old uni. student girl in Shanghai in the beginning of June.
              I was reminded it was just the anniversary day for the Tienanmen massacre occurred the night between 3rd and 4th of June when as many as 10.000 students and other Beijing citizens were killed, so I thought I would ask this young Chinese girl if she knew what happened that date… NO!
              I went on hinted about the Tienanmen massacre, again… NO she didn’t know anything.
              So our chat went on and I told more about it, she became so hurt ans shocked by what I told her she went off-line and in fact since then I see her rarely on-line since then so I think she is avoiding me.

              Is it MY fault… OR the PRC govt. because of what I told this young girl?

              The conclusion, I don’t really think it is the Chinese peoples fault so much as but the govt. When the govt. hide information and manipulate the masses to become nationalistic and sensitive to any foreign criticism the govt. have succeeded in their quest of a dictatorial state.
              When Chinese people become manipulated like this it is not a surprise they have become very sensitive to foreign criticism because they have become to know their country and history in a skewed way, and a natural reaction from the Chinese often is “you don’t understand us or our country”.
              Nevertheless there’s a huge work for a considerable time to make China more open and let both West and China come closer each other, hope that day is coming sooner than later!

              A few words about ChinaBounder to Crystal, I have read more or less all posts from him already for 2 years ago and have had my time to digest it and since then visited and reviewed countless articles and discussion forum topics touching many ChinaBounder alike posts so I have seen and taken part of my share.
              His writing style is very depicted and written in such a way it certainly is intended to be a needle in the eye, and yes Crys, I senced your feelings in your blog article you were probably full of emotional feelings while trying your best to stay calm and balanced, all I can say is simply don’t care too much about it, this is a free world and he was a bit of an a-hole the way he presented his views and sexual conquests. But it would be hypocritical to think that there aren’t SOME Chinese men having very same behaviour with a lot of women (though maybe not exposing it on a blog perhaps..?). In fact when I have visited China staying in hotels in different cities I must say I was quite surprised to discover how many evenings or just during the daytime there were some short term sex activities in the neighbouring hotel room and then left empty during the night, I later noticed the hotels also openly offered a short term room rent for only few hours, it doesn’t take many brain cells to understand to whom this special offer is intended for, the guys (probably the better well of) comes with their mistress or prostitute (or why not bored home staying wives with an overloaded husband always away) for a quicky after the end of the work day while his wife is at home.
              There are always these kind of people everywhere, some have a scaring huge conquer list to boast about, but to conclude all westerners are like that in China is certainly NOT true, thought there ARE more of these type of guys in China (see: WoAi
              August 14th, 2010 at 4:00 pm )no doubt about that as it is a known fact it’s a bit easier for westerners to pick up Chinese women.

              BTW, I can tell you here in the Northern Europe we have kind of same type of “one way polarity” between our blond girls and south European/middle east guys, but not so much the other way round, similar to as we see much less Chinese men-Western women types of relations. There are many “one way polarities” in this world where the attraction goes only in on way but not the other way, for example Malaysian men look for Vietnamese wives but not so many Vietnamese men look for Malaysian wives.

              This leads to another thing how the Chinese girls could be better informed, even if I may seem somewhat and partially critical in my post to some things related China, but I want to point out I have several times defended and informed on many different places on internet the Chinese girls to be better on the alert, better recognize the cheaters and not so easily picked up by foreigners exploiting. The number one thing I often read the Chinese girls jump too quickly into bed (yes, even the ChinaBounder like of guys admits it OPENLY on many China expat forums!!), I would say to those Chinese girls who are out for a serious and lasting relationship with a foreign man she should wait SEVERAL weeks at least before having intercourse, that will put off most impatient players.

              Zai jian!

              • http://blog.friday-nite.com WoAi

                Ah, finally, someone has read MY comment!

              • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

                You made a balanced comment. I only wonder about one thing – why would you from the very beginning discuss politics with Chinese girls? :cool:

                I want to refer you to one of my earlier posts about mistakes not to do with Chinese girls.

            • JC

              You’re such a twat.

              • http://blog.friday-nite.com WoAi

                :grin:

              • Ziccawei

                Nice ‘retort’.

                :cool:

    • Teacher in China

      Wow, over the top much? I realize you’re trolling to get a reaction, but I have some thoughts to share about some of your comments.

      “The reason he said ‘we’ is because it mostly is TRUE. There are thousands of foreign guys in China who are here mostly to get laid.”
      Simply not true. Check out Chinageeks’ survey on this. People come to China (as they go anywhere in the world) for a wide variety of reasons. The fact that, once they are here, they get excited about getting laid is irrelevant. They are, after all, men. Men enjoy getting laid, where ever they are. To suggest that it is our sole reason for living somewhere is ridiculous, and I think you know that.

      “It’s interesting that the owner of this site should have such issue with ChinaBounder now that she has a foreign boyfriend, soon to be husband. Where’s her loyalty to Chinese men?”
      Attacking the personal life of the writer of a blog is just a total dick move. Most people would ban you for this, but I think Crystal is just too nice.

      “That’s why I raised the issue of a Chinese guy doing the same in England. One, if he did, English people mostly would not be so pissed off as Chinese people are with ChinaBounder – in fact, for the most part they would probably find it funny and it would become very popular.”
      This is very typical of anti-Chinese attitude. “X would NEVER happen in my home country” (the implication being that your home country is somehow perfect). You’re dreaming. If some non UK guy started a similar website, people would be pissed too. The attitude of hating “those foreigners coming to steal our women and our jobs” is by no means a special feature of China, and again I think you know this, you’re just being obnoxious for the sake of it. Think about this, what if the guy was Middle-Eastern (say, from Saudi Arabia, where they are allowed multiple wives) and bragging about all the girls he nails all the time – do you honestly think most people would just laugh it off? You can be damn sure there’d be a lot of pissed off people arguing about it in the general public.

      For that matter, how do you feel in your own country when some douchebag in a bar goes on and on about all the girls he’s nailed, and how awesome he is in bed? Most people get angry at behaviour like that, because it’s derogatory towards women and treats them as the proverbial “notches in the bedpost” instead of actual people with feelings. Throw in his racist comments about Chinese guys and whatever other BS he goes on about China, no wonder people were angry. It’s obnoxious, plain and simple.

      • Ziccawei

        We don’t have douchebags in England. That’s an American thing. We have twats.

        :mrgreen:

      • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

        Attacking the personal life of the writer of a blog is just a total dick move. Most people would ban you for this, but I think Crystal is just too nice.

        I am not offended by Ziccawei because I believe that he is aware of “red lines” not to cross…
        His input is a spice and as a Chongqing girl I can stand “spicy food” quite well ;-)

      • anon

        you are completely mistaken. English men get laid plenty. The sexual jealously that causes such a toxic reaction to Chinabounder is a result of not getting laid enough. Ziccawei makes sense and the effeminate shaming language used against him is as a result of sexually naive men placing women on a pedestal. Mature English men realise that modern English women are in charge of their own sexuality, sleep around like sailors and worthy men take advantage of that. Of course this is bad for men, women and society but English men can deal with Chinese men shagging their sluts much better than Chinese men can tolerate foreigners shagging the cast offs, freaks, psycho shia jies and nymphos. Masculine men who now what they want and are brave enough to go get it are very attractive to Chinese women as they are to women from all over the world. Women do not like “nice guys” who wish to protect them from dangerous foreigners. Everytime Chinese men warn Chinese women that foreigners just want to have sex, they help a foreigner get laid.

    • jazz888

      That is a heaping pile of crap. The only thing you’ve done is indited yourself as another people of shit. Many foreign guys, whether they’re true expats sent her by companies, diplomats, or students, are not so degenerate.

      It depresses me that these scum-bag opportunists are allowed in this country.

  • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

    @Ziccawei, are Chinese women supposed to have “loyalty” to Chinese men?

    If so, why? I (as an American man) don’t have any feelings that American women are supposed to be “loyal” to American men (except the specific ones they’re in relationship with).

    If my daughter wants to marry someone from another culture, that in itself would be no problem for me.

    But more to your point (which is very badly stated in that it’s so insulting to those you disagree with): I agree that perhaps ChinaBounder is accurate in some of his depictions of some people. What we “pathetic” guys who are responding are trying to say is that this is not true for many, and that this situation is not a good one, especially for the Chinese women involved (unless they know exactly what they’re getting into, and I can’t speak to that).

    • Ziccawei

      China, Chinese people and Chinese culture dictates that Chinese women should be loyal to Chinese men.
      In America it’s not like that because America is much more developed than China despite the fact that it only has about 300 years of history.
      Or maybe that’s it. When America has 5000 years they will close themselves off from the rest of the world, who knows?

      :mrgreen:

  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    There is one thing that makes me very happy.

    In order to learn better the potential readers of my blog I have participated in different forums and sites for expats living in China. I paid attention that on many expat sites the most vocal and popular members were very Chinabounder-like, finding a special pleasure in making offensive comments about Chinese people in general, Chinese girls specifically and China (the country where they currently live).

    And it makes me very proud that the majority of my readers and commenters are people who respect Chinese people and Chinese women, and are sincere in their intentions.

  • http://wanderingamericantravelblog.blogspot.com/ James

    Yikes. I just read part of his blog and he comes off as delusional to me by trying to back up his behavior with questionable observations of Chinese people. I certainly don’t agree with him about Western men looking for Asian women to have a comfort zone. Maybe that’s just me though. I’m a fairly understanding person but reading about how he took advantage of all those women really turned my stomach. It looks like chivalry is dead in the UK. :sad:

  • http://laowaiink.weebly.com Mark

    When people outside of China ask me what China’s like, I tell them “China is something for everybody.” In regards to women, if you want to find the love of your life, you can find her in China. If you want to drown in a whirlpool of endless flesh, you can in China. Chinabounder’s experiences are not unbelievable and more common than people think, but he doesn’t speak for the whole male kingdom. In China, you can make your own morality, and some people choose to ignore theirs completely. It’s just a bummer that the douchebags get more press than the nice guys.

  • http://blog.friday-nite.com WoAi

    I really do not know where to begin so I’ll just jump right in. Firstly I have to say I have in my 11 years in China seen MANY guys like ChinaBounder, many of whom I call LBH (losers back home) who come here and find suddenly lots of Chinese girls who can’t wait to sleep with them. One of my best friends was experiencing such a similar situation to ChinaBounder that I actually thought he WAS ChinaBounder. He used to teach and so many girls would sit there watching him with admiring eyes, flirting, asking for his number, making up excuses to have a coffee to “discuss” something etc.

    As someone who is Chinese, it does irritate me that many girls here are with white guys who are total losers, but they find them fascinating and amusing. They don’t seem to possess the ability to see that the guy is a dick. I also think it’s a real shame that some girls here look down on their own people so much that they will not consider any guy who is Chinese.

    But to balance that, if the guy you happen to fall in love with happens to be western, I think that’s a different situation and I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. It was girls like the one who was all smiles when being introduced to some western guys and then her face turned completely the other way when she was introduced to me. I felt sorry for her.

    Are all Chinese girls like this? Of course not. But many are. Are all male foreigners in China like ChinaBounder? Of course not, but many are.

    He was very disrespectful to Chinese men, but what he wrote was not entirely untrue. There certainly are many Chinese men who are useless in every way. I know many girls whose boyfriends have no jobs, they play video games all day long and they do not satisfy the girls in bed. I’ve met girls who have said that they like western guys because they are more interesting, they don’t just sit at home all day and the girls have a much better time with them.

    Although I am not white, even as a British born Chinese in China, I have had so many experiences (many I would never have dreamed of prior to coming here) that I one day hope to write a book about it. I cannot blog about it because my blog is not anonymous and many people I know and work with read it.

    As for the angry professor, I have to say I think he was a bit of an idiot starting the campaign simply because he probably was not as successful with the ladies as ChinaBounder, so purely out of jealousy.

    I could go on and on but time doesn’t allow. I think the easiest way to sum it up is to say these are all based on generalisations and that is where the problem lies. To put it in one sentence:

    Not all westerners are playboys, and not all playboys are westerners. You can substitute “playboy” for “loser”, “shit in bed”, “boring” and it still works.

    • Justin Liu

      Does that make you a BBC?

      I think what you’ve said is probably true though I don’t know much about the situation, and as for Chinese girls who lust after white guys and look down on you, no loss really. Would you have wanted to date someone so lacking in perspective?

      (It’s totally coincidental but a British born Chinese is BBC, a Canadian born Chinese is CBC and an American born Chinese is ABC, They’re all television stations in the respective countries)

      • http://blog.friday-nite.com WoAi

        Interesting observation but it’s NOT coincidence. “B” stands for “British” so obviously the British TV station will be British. “A” stands for American so obviously the American TV station would be called ABC.

    • Teacher in China

      “it does irritate me that many girls here are with white guys who are total losers, but they find them fascinating and amusing. They don’t seem to possess the ability to see that the guy is a dick.”
      How many times have I met hot, sweet, lovely girls back home who are also with total dicks? More times than I can count.
      There, someone read your comment – happy now? :mrgreen:

      • anon

        amen Teacher in China. WoAi is rational and I respect his comments but you hit the nail on the head. Men, whether Chinese or Western, are blind to the true nature of women (as are lots of women). Women want masculine men. Chinese men, i.m.o. are more committed to their wives and children that Western men. Most are kind, intelligent, loyal and hard-working.They can’t even get a girlfriend without turning her into a second wife. Unfortunately for them, these qualities are required to create a successful society but not to be a successful seducer for short term success in the sexual market place. A bit of an edge, a mean streak, selfishness which means that you don’t really care what a women thinks….these qualities make men attractive to women for short term flings. Women are even attracted to violence in men. Chinese girls less so that white women, white women less so than black women, but despite the shrieks of feminists, when it comes to short term impulsive sexual liasons women favour high testosterone men or men who can fake it well. Because so many Chinese men act as if Western men are a sexual threat, they help us fake it here beautifully. All the Western pussies (yes, I also use shaming language) who comment they are “not like that”, you will make a great husband but a lousy lover. Like a scrotum, let me give it to you in nutshell: some Chinese women just want to have great sex with an exciting lover. They could sleep with Chinese men but sleeping with Westerners allows them to avoid guilt and meet more sexually experience and sexually skilled men who won’t judge their sluttiness. Is is hard for many educated, intelligent, sensitive Western men (the kind who comment on blogs) to accept that many nice girls want to fuck bad boys. That is human nature and genetic destiny. Chinese men have every right to be offended by mediocre White guys easily sleeping with their 6’s, 7’s. White guys who jump up and down advertising that they are not like that and “respect” Chinese women are just waiving a big sign demonstrating their undesirability to the opposite sex. A peacock’s tail feathers advertise positive sexual traits to pea hen in an obvious way. There are also obvious advertisements of negative traits and criticising sexually successful men for being losers at home is one of them. The number 1 players in China are local Chinese men. Number 2 are ABCs etc. Number 3 are handsome foreigners. Number 4 are normal foreigners who have enough balls to leave home, travel thousands of miles, richer, taller and have more testosterone flowing through their veins than the locals nice guys who have to ask their mothers if their girlfriend is a suitable bride.

  • Ziccawei

    I would say that about 99% of male foreigners here are losers.

    :mrgreen:

    • ahkiwi

      I hope you’re including yourself in that :razz:

      It doesn’t matter where you go, you’ll always find a$$hats, both male and female. We’re human after all is said and done.
      Would I do what Chinabounder did … I don’t think so, it’s not how I’ve been brought up.

      • anon

        means that you are either highly intelligent and low in testosterone so you can exercise self-control or you are not good enough to get away with what Chinabounder did. Very masculine men can sleep around and not get into trouble for it. Sensitive men, weak men, no matter how physically beautiful will experience major drama trying to sleep around in China. Bill Clinton had interns giving him blow jobs in the Oval office and he got away with it. He is a leader amongst men. Guys who turn down easy sex because they were well raised build civilizations, split the atom, change history. Men respect them. They just don’t get laid a lot and the secret to success with women is success with women. In a situation of abundant food, short term mating strategies take over and Women prefer to fuck men who fuck a lot of women. It is hardwired.

    • Darren

      Anyone who isn’t a sociopath lacking honor like you is a loser. Got it. :x

  • c

    It’s a different matter to write about his sexual experiences with “Chinese” women from China but writing a book slandering China…is a dangerous path to walk…especially when you’re provoking the Chinese triads which is very active everywhere in developed countries.

  • http://motpol.blogspot.com Hans Engnell

    I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I don’t agree with Chinabounder one bit. The reasons he mentions is not why I was looking for a Chinese girlfriend. I have discussed, however, barriers with my girlfriend. In the sense of having space, being able to see friends and having interests without sharing every minute together. That is important to me. But that is not having “secrets” from her in any way. Sometime I might want to see a male friend over a beer and chat with him. That’s it. During almost two years of talking to other guys looking for the love of their life in China, I can’t see that any of them have expressed the same opinions as Chinabounder.

    Just my two cents…

    • Bill

      Speaking of barriers, I’ve been with my Beijing born wife for 18 years now. The language and culture barriers are always there and how one reacts to it can be either a major positive or negative.

      One, it’s a constant source of interest. Since we are both interested in each other’s culture, we are always learning and explaining the nuances. These exchanges can get rather pointed since both of us are ‘equal opportunity’ critics (and admirers) of both cultures. We have discussed and compared American and Chinese men and women – the positives and negatives.

      Second, and I find this very important to our relationship, is that there is no hiding behind words, as perhaps an American couple or a Chinese couple can do. Rather, when hashing out things in our relationship the words (english) are kept simple, and this is a good thing. IMO, simple is clearer when it comes to relationships.

      I’m sure there are western guys and Chinese ladies who go into cross-cultural relationships blind, sort of mezmerized by the differentness of it all. Unless the relationship has a cross-cultural respect, I doubt that it deepens and lasts.

      • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

        Bill, I absolutely agree with you that coming from diferent cultures can be a source of interest. Spouses need to constantly learn each other. If they get bored or uninterested – something is dying in their relationship.
        In my opinion, Chinabounder is not able to have a meaningful relationship with any woman – Western, Chinese or any other…

        • disagree

          Just found the website. I think its pretty good.
          I’m married to a Chinese woman (四川) and I find that we seldom argue and grow tired of each other because it takes to much effort given the language barrier we share. A lot less inane bullshit is spoken (and as a man I mean she doesn’t bother me all the time with pointless anecdotes, her insecurities, her female stuff, etc. – you know, all that stuff that guys love hearing about) The thing is, everyone will eventually get “bored” with someone if they stay around them long enough. This is not a good criteria to judge a partner by. It is not your partner’s responsibility to keep you entertained. What makes a relationship like ours work is the fact that we can be around each other pretty much all the time (we own a business together) and not hate each other. My Chinese is pretty good, and her English is quite good, so we can still communicate on a rich enough level to make our lives pleasant.

          Chinabounder is a pig, but he exposes the deep psychological rift and doublethink that pervades China today. Here is a guy who has many sexual conquests with Chinese women, writes about it, and even takes a few shots at Chinese guys in the process. This is the genius of what he does (though he may not even know it.) He calls Chinese guys insecure nationalistic zombies etc. and then they (FQ) respond exactly as one with those characteristics would! I mean a university professor? really? This guy has nothing better to do? He runs out and attempts to collectively strike back for the “honor” of China? Why doesn’t he go after the Chinese men who are doing things ten times worse! Nobody takes advantage of Chinese women more than Chinese men!! And I am not saying they are all bad, I am just saying that if you want to “restore” “Honor” to Chinese women, start closing down all the KTVs and brothels. Start cracking down on polygamy and the practice of keeping several girlfriends while one is married. If he is so concerned about Chinese women, perhaps he should look in the mirror – and that is the point, that is what Chinabender was doing, he was forcing them to look into the mirror. The guy is still an asshole, but c’mon!

          If there are people out there willing to generalize and make the statement that all foreign men in CHina are losers or perverts or both, then you would also have to agree with the remarks that all Chinese men are insecure losers who treat their wives like shit. The day of the loser foreigner is quickly coming to an end here in China, and thus soon Chinese people will have to stop relying on this fallacy that all foreign men who come to China are simply idiots who can’t make it in their own country or perverts with yellow fever.

          • haha no

            HAHAHAHA
            “A lot less inane bullshit is spoken (and as a man I mean she doesn’t bother me all the time with pointless anecdotes, her insecurities, her female stuff, etc”

            God yes, this is one of the major upsides to being with a chinese woman. less arguments and more getting on with it, less talk about crap that is just gettin gin the way of something you had been doing. fantastically written, well done..

        • China Shark Mike

          Right on Crystal the differences are what makes it work in the long run. If you are from two diametrically opposed cultures you will give and take from one another. Your child will become a hybrid so to speak, best features of both cultures.

    • anon

      how many of them have a famous blog? IQ difference? Higher IQ men get laid more? Men who get laid a lot change their opinions of women when they see through the games that women play? Women are just as sexual as men but have to fake chasteness because sluttiness is a big turn off for high quality provider males. If you are in your mid to late 20’s and not getting laid like a carpet in China you are a sexually low value male, no matter how much money your earn, no matter how intelligent you are and no matter much you respect women.

  • Jeff

    I clicked through the link to the Sex and Shanghai blog, but I found it rather too tedious and dull to read very far. I think there are some men who behave in that way to women in the West. I would think that a man in the position of being a teacher, and taking advantage of young female students, would be thought very poorly of by most people, in any country. Perhaps an English teacher in China has greater opportunity for such behaviour. I have insufficient knowledge to be able to make generic judgements about the character of Westerners who go to China to teach English.

    It seems to me that the people I have met who act immorally typically say that they are only doing what everyone else does in some way, or at least what everyone secretly wants to do. Even if that is faintly true in some twisted way, it is irrelevant. Being able to recognise and resist evil impulses is part of what constitutes honourable behaviour.

    Chinabounder speaks for himself, not for anyone else. However, I think that it is probably true that men generally like to keep a part of themselves separate from women. I don’t think that this has to be seen as a bad thing. But a “white woman” with “her perfect ability to see what we really are” : – excuse me? That doesn’t sound like the world that I live in. It seems to me a very strange thing to say.

    Do Western men date Chinese girls as an ego-boosting experience? No, I don’t think so. At least, no more than they date Western girls as an ego-boosting experience. I doubt that Woody Allen was saying that he felt superior to Soon Yi. I think it more likely he was saying that love between two people can equalise what are very different positions in life. This is true, don’t you think?

    • Teacher in China

      Nicely put Jeff, I agree with you 100%

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      I am not sure what exactly Woody Allen meant, but one thing is sure – his relationship with Soon Yi is the longest one (among the multiple others he had) and they are still together.

  • Ziccawei

    Sorry Crystal, clearly I seem to be offending people on your blog.
    I’ll clear off.
    See you!
    Bye!
    :cool:

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      No, no, Ziccawei, you cannot leave now – especially because today I am going to write a post “inspired” by your input ;-)
      As a compensation I want to give you a title of Honorable Troll of LoveLoveChina :!: And also I promise not to disclose your location to Professor Zhang Jiehai…

  • http://blog.friday-nite.com WoAi

    Was my comment invisible to everyone???

  • Cedric

    I will tell my opinion : best thing is to live a happy life in China without have anything to do with sex or romance. Get friends, have fun, be intelligent and interested, and everything will be fine :0)!

  • http://www.filination.com/blog Fili

    Wow. Quite the discussion. It’s interesting your posts always bring up an interaction.

    There are many Chinabounders. When I wrote about him way back on my blog I compared him to another Israeli guy who did the same type of thing in Israel, with even more degrading descriptions, but the main difference was that in the Chinese case this was turned into a social problem where Chinabounder represents either foreign men in China or men in general, whereas the Israeli case some people hated him, some people (many of them females) loved him but everyone just let him be and saw him as the single case that he was. The question is then not “is he right?” or “are all men assholes?”, but rather – what about the cultural differences between Israel and China creates the different responses? what is it about the Chinabounder story that makes it so sensitive? Is it race? is it gender? is it culture? is it a unique combination of all of those?

    As a side note, I know a couple of western females who used to keep track of Chinabounder’s exploits and stories with great interest. I would generally describe their attitudes towards the whole thing is somewhat sympathetic and at-times positive.

    • armo

      who is this Israeli blogger ? can u send a link ? – must be interesting !

      as to chinabounder, when reading the (Chinese) comments on his blog, I was reminded of comments i find in a site called “china smack”. It seems that any sexual relationship between laowai and local girls raises a big amount of nationalistic responses. Personally I find this fact a bit scary… I wonder why miss crystal finds that the state of the Chinese female reputation is worrying, whilst overlooking the flaming waves of hate directed at man who has committed no crime… a fact that in my eyes should be the most concerning…

      a human flesh hunt ??? wtf ??? isn’t that a treat saved for criminals ???

      • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

        I never advocated “human flesh search”!

        Also I would want to point out that before claiming that someone committed (or not committed) a crime – you have to define according to what rules you judge it: Chinese laws? British laws? Common-sense norms? Religious laws? Codex of professional ethics?

        As for me being concerned of one topic over another – I can have my preferences, can’t I? Global warming is a much bigger problem than Chinabounder, but it doesn’t mean that everyone must blog about it, right?

    • anon

      Fili knows what’s up. In every country, some men like pussy too much and dedicate so much of their lives to it they get laid a lot. Hardly every turns out well. Indulging yourself in anything: food, drugs, women is a sign of weakness of character and should be cut out. Naturally happens as men age and testosterone and looks fall away. However, women are fascinated by men who fuck a lot. Sorry guys, some of you hate to hear this. If a man has sex with lots of women, some virginal and chaste girls will want to sleep with him and will ignore you and all your honour, virtue and blinkered loyalty. Even white girls were interested in Chinabounder according to Fili. As I have said above, every time a jealous Chinese man makes out Westerners to be a sexual threat he helps us get laid. Please keep it up, including all the ABC’s out there who will get laid far more than any White guy if they can just stop being such sensitive pussies for 5 minutes.

  • Axiom

    WOW. just wow.

    This guys is completely and 100% WRONG!!!

    The reason I have a Chinese woman as a fiancee is the fact she knows me better than any other person on this planet. We think a like and share our very most initmate thoughts, everything from our personal thoughts on our respective countries, to our fears about the world. I have never connected with anyone so deeply as her, which is why I asked her to marry me.

    It sounds like this Chinabounder is just a jerk who is trying to justify his actions. I hope he is caught and lynched since it gives the rest of us who actually love the woman we are with a bad rep.

    • Nick

      Axiom,

      please forgive me for noticing your comment so late. I want to agree with you! My Chinese angel knows me better than anyone. She truly understands me and my heart, and she cares enough to try. She knows exactly how to melt my heart with just a touch or a smile. She knows how to calm me when I’m upset, and how to make me open up when I normally would retreat into myself. She is my safe harbour in the storms of life. Her love is the source of my peace and my strength, because I know that no matter what happens, she will love me and she will be there for me. She has shown this in her actions more times than I can count, and I am working very hard to get to the point where I can marry that little angel.

      Axiom, I believe I understand the closeness you share with your fiancee, because I share that same closeness with my sweetheart.

  • http://www.chinabounder.blogspot.com ChinaBounder

    I’m rather surprised anyone even cares about that blog – it was a long time ago, after all.

    For what it’s worth, my opinion of Chinese men – in general, and by no means all Chinese men – was shaped by what I heard from many women. Their opinions on male society in China were almost wholly negative.

    NorthEuropean wonders if much of the state of modern China can be blamed on Mao. While the Han have always been fearful yet contemptuous of other races, it seems to me that the Communists are very largely to blame for making China the insecure yet boastful society that it is today.

    Crystal:

    “…on many expat sites the most vocal and popular members were very Chinabounder-like, finding a special pleasure in making offensive comments about Chinese people in general..”

    I never set out to make offensive comments for the sake of offense; and I am confident that I can justify any comments I made that were deemed offensive.

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      “You can justify any comments you made”?

      Okay, I DO have few questions for Chinabounder. But first prove please that YOU ARE the owner of the site “Sex and Shanghai”.

      It’s very easy to do. Just insert the word “LoveLoveChina” somewhere in the beginning of the last post “Reason Number 50 – The Voice of China”. After I see it there – you can remove it.

      Real Chinabounder would do it – he himself didn’t favor anonymous commenters on his blog.

    • Teacher in China

      This could be really good (grabs popcorn)

    • anon

      @ Chinabounder – you can’t believe what Chinese women tell you regarding Chinese men. When I first arrived in China I was shocked by how often Chinese girls would tell me that they had a boyfriend but they didn’t like him or he was “no good”. This is how a non self aware girl makes a come on to a man she likes. Western women do exactly the same. Chinese men, in my 15 years experience, are excellent providers and loyal fathers and husbands to a greater degree than white men. However, if a woman is looking for a more masculine man, because of her genetic predisposition, she will be of course be repulsed by these very same “provider” qualities and fantasize about the “lover” qualities of the (current) sexually higher status white male. In America today, white women can’t find husbands because they spend their beautiful 20’s being serially pumped and dumped by the top men in their cities. Around 30 the ones who are not smart/beautiful enough to close a deal with Mr. Big settle for some provider chump who they immediately turn into a pussy, banning him from hanging out with friends and having his own life. If he is a nice enough guy to become a compliant lap dog he totally kills their sexual desire in him and the sex gets shut off. 50% of marriages in the States now end in divorce despite people marrying as mature adults in their late 20’s. These men are the best of men but modern american culture mocks and ridicules the white provider male. In China, the kind of girl who wants to fuck a foreigner has the same attitude towards decent Chinese men. Firstly she has to rationalise her sluttiness to herself for sucking your cock on the second date when she gave her last Chinese boyfriend blue balls and didn’t even kiss him for the first 2 months. Second, all women hate nice boys. Their will only accept a nice boy who is a genetically perfect pretty guy like Justin Bieber. If you don’t have serious body and facial symmetry with a nice mix of masculine and feminine facial features (George Clooney) your niceness as a man is interpreted low value. You treat women so well because you never get laid. Chinese girls criticised Chinese men to you because otherwise they would feel like a slut for chasing you and you accept what they say because your subconscious instinct as a male is to feel superior to anyone lower down in the sexual hierarchy than you. However, the hottest, smartest, most desirable Chinese women are almost exclusively accessible by Chinese men and white guys don’t get near them. We get the Christians, the arty types, the rebels, the girls who grey up without fathers, the used up sluts, the fatties and the utter, fucked up crazies. Sure, there are some normal girls and gems amongst them but the very fact that a Chinese girl is bouncing up and down on your knob means she is not representative of Chinese womanhood and your can’t trust a word of why she doesn’t like the local boys.

  • http://blog.friday-nite.com WoAi

    Crystal is a pretty smart cookie! Yes, please wait while I change in to my comfortable shoes ….

  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    Update: I got a contact from Chinabounder – from e-mail which appears on his blog. It seems to be a good proof of his authenticity.
    Now I am compiling a list of questions but I am not sure he will answer them. Anyway, we will see. And meanwhile I will continue blogging about other not less “important” topics :lol:

    • David

      Just be careful…it is possible to fake an email address, even someone else’s (I have done it before…for a computer class, of course!).

      • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

        Thanks, David.
        I know what you mean. :idea:

    • Nick

      It is quite easy to fake (“spoof”) the sending address for email. I would suggest that you continue with your original test. I would regularly send emails from “President@whitehouse.gov” to friends as a lark before the September 11 attacks and people no longer found such things amusing.

    • karl lacroix

      PLEASE post the questions you actually asked this guy called ‘CHINABOUNDER’ and the answers you received.

      Also from which posting – date and title – did you get your original ‘quotes’ from.

      thanks.

      k.l.

      • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

        I am quite sure it won’t be interesting.

        Out of 12 questions I asked him – he more or less answered only 2, gave “protocol” answers to 3 more and 7 other totally ignored.

        Anyway, I can post it a little bit later (just need to finish the post I am currently working on :smile: )

      • Karl Lacroix

        Crystal..,.
        Still waiting for you to reply to my request for details.
        Perhaps you cannot reply because you have taken material out of
        context and dressed it up so thart it appears to suit your narratve?

        It is the multitude of mistakes in the grammar in the samples of Chinabounder writings that you initially provided that provides the clue. He is far from perfect but never that bad.

        And the non-exixtant questions that you supposedly asked?
        And received answers for?

        “I’ve exchanged few mails”. Nope…never happened.

        At least you should offer honesty along with your attempts at controversy.

        I know. Note my name.

  • http://blog.friday-nite.com WoAi

    If he is the real China Bounder it would take him 30 seconds to do the test you set him, so obviously it’s not him. Sending an email is NOT PROOF. As others have said it’s simple to send an email from someone else’s account.

    • anon

      Woai, you a such a brown nose. Why don’t you just ask Crystal for a date already and get your tongue out of her arse?

  • Wombadan

    Q: Is it relatively easy to get a Chinese girl into bed? Like, more easily than European, American or other Asian girls?
    A: Yes, it is.

    Q: Is there more open prostitution in China than say in Thailand & Philippines?
    A: Yes, there is.

    All Chinabounder did (apart from a lot of fucking) was destroy the myth that Chinese girls are havens of virtue. Because they’re not. And that’s why you’re angry.

  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    Thanks for comment, @Wombadan, but you have wrong assumptions regarding the questions I wanted to ask Chinabounder.

    I will use this opportunity to update that I’ve exchanged few mails with the author of “Sex and Shanghai” and asked him a number of questions. He refused to answer the most important of them and I felt that he is reluctant to reopen the “Chinabounder” chapter of his life.

    On the other hand the things that currently interest him (like China’s politics) are not relevant to the contents of my blog. Equally irrelevant are any speculations regarding Chinabounder’s “answers” to questions that have never been asked.

  • FOARP

    Daisy, interesting analysis. Heres some clues however, Chinabounder is mates with FOARP and Dan Harris over at China Law Blog. You might want to follow us up with that – we all love taking the piss out of people who are in China and compete with us. Same same Chinabounder. Happy to help with the real deal on how to piss off people and expats in China. Life cool in Osaka btw.

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      Who is Daisy :?: Huh – never mind.
      This time I will leave your comment as is. But in the future, please, don’t use my blog to exchange the cyphered messages, OK?

  • benjamin

    I read through a decent amount of the Chinabounder’s pre-book promoting blog posts several months ago and found it to be a largely depressing and narcissistic account of a sex-addict in denial of how deep his issues really go. I know that you’re not interested in speaking directly on his personality, but I don’t think his words should be isolated from bigger picture.

    That said, the idea that a Chinese woman won’t be able to read a western man as well as a western woman by default is silly. She will likely read him differently, but not necessarily less skillfully or efficiently. She may also be less able to verbalize (in English) what is it she reads in him. I get that that not having a strong grasp of western social norms can be an impediment to reading a westerner, but that’s all surface; to really read somebody you have to get beneath the social programming anyway.

    • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

      Benjamin, I agree completely; there is cultural knowledge a western woman would have that would help read a man, and also unspoken (and unconscious) cultural habits that would hinder the reading (or else they would always read successfully). A Chinese woman will read with Chinese eyes, and see some things more clearly, others not at all.

      I think my Chinese fiancee misses some things about me, and misunderstands some things — and some things she sees more clearly than any of my past western significant others ever did.

  • China Shark Mike

    First I like to comment before I read the other posts as to be objective as possible. Yes there are too many foreigners with this agenda in mind living and teaching in China. Using his position to feed his womanistic desires is sick. It’s English teachers like that that gives all of us a bad name. Truth be told I became seriously involved with two of my students. I never did for the reason that I could control another human being. Crystal it was an interesting point bringing up his mental state of mind or his own depraved indifference to Chinese women. This guys a pure sociopath, cowards like this go to countries like Thailand for any type of vice you can imagine. He’s a legend in his own mind. He feels emasculated by white women therefore he uses and abuses people that would tolerate that kind of nonsense. As a culture Chinabounder made some valid points on the demenure of Chinese men and women. As a whole Chinese are not confrontational so more easily manipulated by a boyfriend or spouse. I think what he writes is rhetoric and has deep seated issues with his own soul. But I think he misinterpretted the behavior of the Chinese women. When I lived in Japan I saw the same culture barrier that made it easier to have intimate encounters with Japanese girls or Chinese. If doing these actions with a fellow country the girl would be considered a slut or a whore. Foreigners they never lose their face, hence even ugly, old, fat trolls like Chinabounder have more than their share of women here. Personally, I find Chinese to be so much more interesting than my own countrywomen. Unfortunately the world will always have scum like Chinabounder around. You’re right the sob would have been lynched if he stayed around much longer. Whatever happened to that loser anyway? He does write rather well so maybe he’s at least a legitimate English teacher. Lot of teachers here but not many good ones. You speak English you got a job mentality is what makes my job tough at times. Too many training centers hire idiots to teach a langauge they can barely manage. Hopefully if we’re lucky he’ll stay far away from China. He did it for shock value and imagine quite a few of the stories were a lot more colorful than what really took place. Karmatic justice will take the guy out rest assured.

    • anon

      another sensitive bitch.

  • Bored in Sydney

    I was bored and interested enough to go read a slab of the content from China Bounder. As a former China Scholar, basic grasp of the language, and done business with China for many years I found that a lot of what he had to say is quite true. There are quite a few factual and balanced examples in his criticism of China, the tainted Milk scandal is a great example to that I would add the guy who substituted the safe paint supplied to him by the multinational toy company to use cheaper lead based paint on Children’s toys. No that would not have happened in Australia, I know as I have worked in that industry, but yes that sort of stuff happens in China and you have to ask the question, what won’t some people in China do for the sake of massive personal greed? The obsession with with getting wealthy has be the motivation from some truly disgusting behaviour and in a way it might be a good thing that they still have the death penalty, although that will not bring back the children who died from poison baby formula, will it?

    I think that being raised in a controlled culture and controlled environment fed on lies and half truths about the world has seriously eroded the ability of many Chinese to be objective. Very few Chinese still living in China have the ability to be objective. The education system in China is about rote learning and not acquiring the ability to seek the truth, as used to be the case in a western university for example. For some reason ‘attack as a form of defence’ seems to be a common habit in Chinese people. Over on the China Smack website the video of the filthy personal attack by the Shanghai woman caught not paying for her metro ticket is a good example, I have seen that type of thing myself also dozens of times. Shouting because you are caught or wrong does not make you right or innocent.

    The probably motivation of China Bounder was boredom. Being away from home, lonely and stuck in a culture that makes no sense for a long time, would lead anyone to do things to seek out company. You can hang out with the Expat crew who are truly enough often judgemental misogynists, and it is a pretty tough ask to get into a friendly Chinese males (as yes they are often closed off and also judgemental of western guys evidently taking all their girls, certainly they are also misogynists). So what are you left with? The company of local women, and why not. It certainly seems that he was enjoying the intellect of the often super bright Chinese girls. Yes they are passionate I agree from experience and yes they are sometimes in need of learning how to be a good lover. I also support his comments from my own experience that my Chinese girlfriends have generally complained about the size, lack of skill, and general ability of their previous ex partners. As to their other comments about Chinese males, the example of my current GF from Sichuan, who tells me of her brother in his mid 30s who has never worked, is supported by her mother and his wife. Oh what a great example of a man he is hey? And that is just one of dozens of examples I can give.
    As to the people who are defending Chinese men in regard to be respectful to females, I give you one word, CONCUBINES…

    I also agree that there seem to be a fair number of males here that are still in the phase of being captivated by the notion of the China lady. In love with having a partner of your dreams. If you are not even living on the same continent as her at this time you are not even into the honeymoon, so I discount the view of these people, they can learn later. I wonder how many of these people are looking for or with a lady more than 10 years younger? To the people who are defending men like Woody Allen, WTF? That type of thing is disgraceful and makes my skin crawl, if you feel it is either normal or good you are deluded.

    Yes I have dated many Chinese women, and slept with them as well. I was respectful to them and we all enjoyed each other’s company. Hopefully I find a one not after a rich man to look after her, not wanting babies, and I will settle down with her, I keep looking. No I am not a Loser type wanting to go to China for an easy run of sex, in fact I have never picked up a girl while in China as all. I am not restricted to non western women, I am in good shape, very well educated, high earner and just happen to find Asian women more attractive and intelligent. However even in Australia I see plenty of fat old losers with a sorry looking Asian girl in tow, but who and I to judge, maybe it is these guts who are getting used? Who knows what kind of suffering life these women can from to reach the hand of the western saviour?

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      I don’t care what Chinabounder did with girls as long as they were not underage and it was based on mutual agreement. I doubt, however, that these girls gave agreement to feature as pornography “stars” on his blog.

      And if it is just a fruit of his fantasy – then he should take example from American movies where there is a disclaimer that all personages are fictitious and any similarity to real persons is coincidental.

    • anon

      @ Bored in Sidney – some great points made. To many inexperienced men commenting whose judgement is clouded by sexual jealousy. You make sense.

  • Bored in Sydney

    He probably never used real names and/or never expected to be publicly identified. I suggest that writing diary was as much for himself as making it a public record. As I said earlier he would mostly have been lonely and reaching out for some company, and although he might have been in a way manipulative getting the women to bed, they were all adults and would have also had their own reasons for sleeping with him. Perhaps most of them really enjoyed the experience anyway.

    My point was really that some of his criticisms of China seem to be well researched and presented. The childish reactions from the public to his blog say more about their ability to accept criticism than it does about him. I am not sure of the Chinese view of personal or general criticism but from my observation it is not good.

    In western culture people are often judged on their personal ability to accept criticism and learn from it. For example in your job you will normally have a performance review at least once a year and one of the worst comment that you can receive from your supervisor is that you do not accept criticism well. So Western people learn that we need to listen to others sometimes and also hear their criticism. Perhaps the people getting so upset should grow up, act like adults and actually try to understand why an outsider might have developed these beliefs about their culture after living in their culture for many years.

    I would respect them if they could do that rather that just going straight to attack and not trying to understand ‘why?’

    • Bill

      I think how criticism is handled in East vs West has deep cultural roots involving face and shame (or lack of it). You know – Western guilt vs Asian shame. Perhaps Crystal can expand upon this sometime.

      I have noticed how my wife’s Chinese friends here in the States do not take criticism well – even light criticism meant to point to some small correction. Even my wife is touchy about it. She usually lashes back with her quick tongue (quicker than mine), but comes around with a little time.

      And can you imagine Chinese newspapers with the West’s political cartoons mocking politicians? Not likely.

      • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

        I’d love to see Crystal tackle this in an article. I remember seeing a documentary on the folks who marched after the Sichuan earthquake and what they considered an unacceptable government response to that: the local government officials asked them “why do you hate China?” and asked them to stop, adding that they were making China lose face to the rest of the world. The core issue of justice and the perceived lack of it wasn’t even mentioned by the officials — just that showing this criticism was unpatriotic.

        In the USA, this kind of attitude emerges when we wage war (Vietnam, Iraq) but not over something like this.

        • Bored in Sydney

          I think that calling it a difference in culture is true however that is just a broad brush excuse for a lack of maturity. I like Chinese culture as much as the next, otherwise I would not have spent years learning about it as well as Mandarin. BUT I conclude after many years that a lot of with ChinaBounder said is correct in regards to the immaturity of a culture that is unwilling to accept criticism. Passing it off as a loss of face issue is the same as me allowing my child to do stupid stuff because she is a little kid and does not know how to reason, understand, and act like an adult.

          When I was new to the game and still starry eyed about the new culture of China I used to accept too much bad behaviour that these days I will call out. It’s just like the gold digger thing being passed off as being culturally normal. It’s bad behaviour, it’s really that simple

          • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

            Firstly, I think that if someone wants to enjoy a foreign culture she/he has to give up any comparisons and try to perceive it in a holistic manner.
            Secondly, what comes to my mind is that the Western Culture is built on the logical assumption that two entities “A” and “B” can coexist in only one of two relationships: “a” IS “b” / “a” IS NOT “b”. Such – I would say idealistic – approach leads to a need to make comparisons when judging about the unknown things.

            • anon

              Crystal, more deductive logic in Chinese culture would help China. This holistic nonsense is rationalisation for self-indulgent, emotional based thinking.

          • Teacher in China

            I want to take issue with some of the things that have been said in the last few posts. As a pre-emptive strike, I’ll just say that I have been here for 5 years, so I’m well past the “starry-eyed” phase (in fact, I never really went through that phase, even with my own culture).

            1) “The childish reactions from the public to his blog say more about their ability to accept criticism than it does about him.”

            I brought this up before as being a completely blind comment. Do you honestly think that if some foreigner in a Western country had a similar blog about all the conquests he has made that no one would take issue with it? And if he went on afterwards to level criticism after criticism at said country, that everyone would just smile, rosy-cheeked, saying “Oh that guy!” and laugh it off? What world are you people living in, because I would like to live there. Calling this an example of “Chinese childishness” or an inability to take criticism is outrageous.

            2) “So Western people learn that we need to listen to others sometimes and also hear their criticism.”

            I could have quoted more, but I highlighted this because it’s really the crux of what you’re saying: “In the West, we’re so X, but here in China you’re so Y”. These kinds of arguments are the reason why Chinese people “can’t take criticism”, in your eyes. They’re completely false arguments, and they’re consistently and condescendingly aimed at China. When Canada didn’t join the USA in the war in Iraq and began to criticize the whole thing, do you think the USA was perfectly ok with it, because, as you say, “we know better over here in the West” (I’m paraphrasing there, but that’s the attitude you portray, like it or not). In fact, watch any video of any two or more political parties arguing over any issue in any Western country, and you can see how “well” we accept criticism. People don’t like to be criticized. Period. Doesn’t matter which country they come from.

            3) “can you imagine Chinese newspapers with the West’s political cartoons mocking politicians?”

            This has very little to do with the inability to accept criticism, and a lot to do with politics. The government doesn’t want anyone causing trouble or stirring up trouble in others, so they suppress it. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying that using this to support the point doesn’t make sense.

            4) “I remember seeing a documentary on the folks who marched after the Sichuan earthquake and what they considered an unacceptable government response to that: the local government officials asked them “why do you hate China?””…”In the USA, this kind of attitude emerges when we wage war (Vietnam, Iraq) but not over something like this.”

            Sorry to say this, but you seem deluded about the maturity of your country’s political culture. Take this example: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/04/obamaflagpinlap.html
            All of this erupted when he didn’t wear an American flag on his lapel. His attempt to engage in criticism of his country was not met with any of the falsely claimed “western maturity” that you all crow on about, but with him being labeled as “unpatriotic”. News stations (Fox news in particular) went on and on and on about how unpatriotic it was to not wear an American flag pin on his lapel like it was the end of the freaking world or something. Sound mature to you?

            Look, China doesn’t like criticism from the West because it’s often delivered arrogantly and self-servingly. Flip the sides and ask yourself how you would react if China kept leveling criticism after criticism at your own country, especially if that country was going through an unprecedented societal change. Give it a rest already, let them figure out their own problems. If they need your opinion, they’ll ask for it.

            • Bored in Sydney

              You are quoting comments from several different people in the post it gets a little confusing as you seem to be grouping my expressed view in with others who are likely different apart from being from a different background.

              Anyway I think you should go back a read a whole bunch of the reactionary comments in response to the China Bounder blog. If you then come back and feel afterwards that they are balanced and mature I truly feel sorry for you. Yes it is an arrogant response from me but as an adult you could not conclude those type of replies and highly divisive responses as anything but childish. No need to be politically correct about it.

              On the final point, China is not shy about making public statements in direct criticism of other countries and cultures. That’s their right, but things move in two directions, we have to be prepared to take as good as well give. This very point feeds into your comment about politics. The very role of having at least 2 strongly opposing sides in politics is the way it works. They might talk crap a lot of the time and be also corrupt and self serving, but the debate and the argument is the whole point, that is their role, to debate what is being done.

              • Teacher in China

                Yes, I combined two different people in one response. I should have made that clearer by putting your names.

                I don’t need to read the comments left on Chinabounder’s blog to know that they are probably very angrily worded, and maybe even childish. You’ve missed my point entirely, which may be because I didn’t state it clearly enough (I should have written “Chinese” childishness, not “Chinese childishness”). What I meant was, to single this out as specifically “Chinese” childishness is outrageous, when it clearly would have had the same reaction anywhere, given similar circumstances. I’ll use my previous example from somewhere in this thread: what if a Middle Eastern guy in some Western town had a similar blog about all the white Christian girls he’s screwed? You honestly don’t think people on the net would get angry about it? And then if he not only refused to apologize but also began leveling criticisms at the entire culture of the country? You honestly don’t think people would react similarly? Honestly? To make it 100% clear: using this specific Chinabounder example to show how childish Chinese people are and how they can’t accept criticism does not hold water. The same thing would happen anywhere else in the world.

                On your last comment: I’m not denying that China has criticized other countries. However, you’re straying from the point here. I wasn’t talking about governments, I was talking about people on the internet (that should have been clear, given the context of our conversation, but whatever). There’s a hug difference there, and I agree that in the language of international politics, which is often polite and carefully worded, all sides should be willing to accept constructive criticism.

                Your last point about debate is interesting, as it seems to suggest debate is healthy, but also says it’s ok “to talk crap”, and “be corrupt and self-serving”. If you want to have a real debate and actually affect change, you need to drop some of the attitude and arrogant language that I too often read in forums where foreigners are discussing Chinese issues. Look at the language of your last few posts:

                “I think that being raised in a controlled culture and controlled environment fed on lies and half truths about the world has seriously eroded the ability of many Chinese to be objective. Very few Chinese still living in China have the ability to be objective.” Questioning Chinese people’s ability to think and be objective.

                “Chinese males (as yes they are often closed off and also judgemental of western guys evidently taking all their girls, certainly they are also misogynists)” Calling all Chinese men misogynists.

                “my Chinese girlfriends have generally complained about the size, lack of skill, and general ability of their previous ex partners.” Making sexual insults at Chinese men.

                “However even in Australia I see plenty of fat old losers with a sorry looking Asian girl in tow, but who and I to judge, maybe it is these guts who are getting used? Who knows what kind of suffering life these women can from to reach the hand of the western saviour?” So many bad things in here I don’t know where to begin.

                And then, of course, your main point: that Chinese people are childlike compared to “the West”s more “adult and sophisticated culture” (you didn’t say those words, but it’s clearly implied by your tone – I’m using quotes to show that I don’t think it’s true).
                “The childish reactions from the public to his blog”
                “Perhaps the people getting so upset should grow up, act like adults”
                “I think that calling it a difference in culture is true however that is just a broad brush excuse for a lack of maturity”
                “the immaturity of a culture that is unwilling to accept criticism. Passing it off as a loss of face issue is the same as me allowing my child to do stupid stuff because she is a little kid and does not know how to reason, understand, and act like an adult.”

                Is it any wonder that “Chinese people can’t accept criticism”? Chinese people read things like this and they get angry and want to defend themselves and their country against something they see as insulting, unfair, and possibly completely false. Moreover, they may know that things aren’t necessarily better in whatever part of the world you’re living in, so to them you’re just coming off as an arrogant douchebag trying to pick a fight. Is it any wonder they give it to you?

                If this is typical of your dialogues on message boards, then I’d suggest you try dropping all of the implications and insults.

                One last and final point: I’m not sitting here and saying Chinese people are perfect. I’m sure there are just as many douchebags here as in the rest of the world. I’m just saying I don’t blame them for making some of the responses that they make online. Yes, they should rise above it. But when confronted with douchebaggery, we can’t all always be completely objective.

                • Bored in Sydney

                  Do you have the type of personality that pushes your need to win an argument? I saw you tried to make the point about a foreigner attacking western culture or talking about local women he had slept with would be taken as outrageous… Not so sure about that. I guess I am really only able to give my own perspective and that is that I would not give a crap. If some girl sleeps with some guy it is a personal call and a fairly unrelated event to the judgement of their culture. Yes China Bounder might have drawn a long bow in his judgements, especially considering the depth and breadth of Chinese people, given the huge population and diversity. However it seems to me that the responders on his blog are equal to, if not worse for passing them off as just examples of a few sluts. People are sexual, that’s a fact. Being more open minded in general is a challenge, but most people would do well from evolving in that direction.

                  As to your general comment on my posts being somewhat insulting, yes they can be. But I am not always the PC type. I can be if required and have had a successful career in international diplomacy (although I am sure this would get a laugh from a few read this), but particularly in that capacity I have seen too much bulldust accepted under the blanket of saving face. Sometime we just need to call out the rubbish that gets pedalled about, I also struggle to continue with that one myself.

                  With the government monitoring your posts you should do the right thing though, fair call.

                  • Teacher in China

                    no, I actually don’t care much about winning or losing arguments, but when someone posts consecutive comments that have lots in them that I disagree with, I feel obliged to make my point strongly; when that gets disagreed with, I feel obliged to respond again. Usually that’s where I leave it. I learned a long time ago that, especially on the internet, people aren’t actually interested in changing their minds, they’d rather just rant and continue believing what they’ve always believed.

                    So, let’s leave it at that shall we?

                • anon

                  @ teacher in China, great comment and very true but Chinese sensitivity to criticism is out of all proportion. Westerners are just not in the same league. I once made the comment to a work mate that someday the Chinese National soccer team will one day win the world cup because the Chinese body type, with a relatively low centre of gravity, will result on a focus on playing the ball on the ground and promote greater skill than the British kick and rush style. My buddy was highly offended and pointed stated that many northern Chinese are very tall. My statement may have been ignorant but I was attempting to compliment Chinese football. All my buddy heard was that I was saying the Chinese are not tall. Sorry dude, compared the the amount of tall people that the Scandos,Dutch, Northern Germans, Russians have, even the tall Northern Chinese are not that impressive as a proportion of the population.

            • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

              “Sorry to say this, but you seem deluded about the maturity of your country’s political culture.”

              TiC, please don’t call your fellow posters “deluded” — it just makes you sound arrogant. Perhaps, in your mind, I overestimate said “maturity of … political culture” (not that I’m even sure what that means, those are your words not mine); however, I stand by my point, which was simpler than you made it out to be: if a group of Americans wanted to march against a local government in protest of something, most local government officials wouldn’t try to dissuade them by appeals to how they make America look internationally and by attacking their patriotism. (though now that I’ve written that, in a small number of exceptional cases, some local officials would probably make such an attack, so I’ll meet you halfway on that one; :lol: but if they did, their attack would itself become a news item and seen as un-American by most). I don’t think your example of the attack on Obama is analogous.

              • Teacher in China

                TLB, you most certainly implied that the political culture of the USA was more mature than that of China when you made your criticism, even if you didn’t outright say it.
                My example of Obama was just one of many examples I could have used to display the lack of maturity of American political culture. It wasn’t meant to be analagous to the Chinese situation that you mentioned, but rather to refute your implied point that American politics are somehow more mature.
                You’ve mostly posted good comments on this blog, so I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on my misunderstanding of your intentions, but I won’t apologize for calling someone “deluded” when I think they are making an implication that so clearly is deluded. Besides, I did precede with “sorry”, doesn’t that make it all better? ;-)

                • http://www.magnoliaarts.com TLB

                  haha, well, I guess saying “sorry” before insulting someone is supposed to make it better, but, then again, maybe not :grin:

                  I think you need to separate the person from the comment; I can think you might be ignorant of something without calling you an ignorant person. And please don’t impute intentions onto me that I don’t hold. I don’t consider American political culture more mature than any other. On this point at least, I think you delude yourself. :razz:

                  • Teacher in China

                    OK, fair enough TLB, sorry I miscontrued your point.

  • Bored in Sydney

    I think the best way to try to really understand it is to talk to someone who have grown up in China and left to live in a Western culture for at least 10 years and has a western partner. It takes a long time to understand a new culture, I think in the first 5 years at least people are still looking and making a comparison.

    I really don’t understand your example about IS and IS NOT but I presume that is because you are looking at it from Chinese point of view and I am looking the other way. Sort of like a dog talking to a cat.

    Crystal I presume also that most of your impression of the world outside China is from Israel? If that is the case I believe it is not a balanced view of the World outside China. Because Israel is probably not a balanced society since it is heavily religious and not really a Western society at all. Certainly not a secular society anyway

  • mikey

    all i want to say is:

    crystal, i think you dispell any generalizations about chinese women.

    i personally think everywhere in the world is about the same.

    there are good chinese folks, as there are some pretty bad chinese folks (same goes for chinese women).

    as there are good western folks, along with bad western folks (as well as their female counterparts).

    i mean, what is all this huss and fuss about people in china or the west? either u like them or u don’t. either u get it or u don’t.

    for the western folks (me included) in china for awhile, i’m pretty confident that you’ve found something u like about it. otherwise, u’d pack your bags and leave.

    i don’t think anybody’s gonna really “get it” by reading this blog. people should learn to create their own judgement via their own personal experiences. not from the rants and raves of others…

    …which creates a mob/lemmings effect. fucking lemmings are extinct, don’t follow in their paths.

    crystal, good stuff. u aren’t perfect, but i definitely think you have the right attitude. if more people viewed the world as you do, we probably wouldn’t be in such a rut.

    and if u ever come out with a book, i’ll definitely line up a publisher for u. keep chuggin.

    much respect to all. peace.

  • China Shark Mike

    Mikey, I get it you dish Crystal then you try to make money off her by being her agent.

  • Bob Chippens

    I’m still not sure what all the fuss is about. Guys regardless of nationality do this all over the world, whether in their own country or another. And *shock horror*, girls do it too. That includes Chinese guys fucking around a lot. Yet everything was blown out of proportion because it was a *foreigner* fucking the poooooooor defencccceless Chinese wallflowers (read: WOMAN, with the same drives and passions as women anywhere in the world), and writing about his experiences.

    The professor’s spectacularly childish (and I mean CHILDish – it was like it was coming from an angst-ridden 9-year-old) reactions merely confirmed a lot of what Chinabounder was saying. It is absolutely crystal clear that The Nutty Professor has very little experience with women nor understanding of women.

  • singularity

    Man i was so bored and i came across to this website and this post is amusing.Here are my 3 cents-
    Quote-” 99% of lao wai’s in China are losers and they are in China because they are good for nothing in their own countries”
    I have heard/read this kind of comments many times.I think foreigners chasing Chinese girls,big bellies surrounded by sluts in bars or supercilious white guys don’t not always represent all foreigners here.Not all of’em are teachers,some of’em are students(as me),some are here for business(so they had to come here).It’s sure as hell that every foreigner (if had a chance) here in china have done same sh*t at least once, what chinabounder did several times.So i think Americans,Aussies,white homo sapiens,western Casanovas don’t make whole of china’s foreigners population.There are always good and bad people everywhere,and it’s not a rockets science to understand this simple face ,so we shouldn’t jump to conclusions.
    A RECENT SURVEY(NOT VERY RECENT)SHOWS THAT ALL THE SURVEYS ARE BULLCRAP. he he ha ha ho ho

  • Karl Lacroix

    dear Crystal,

    Yes I did check chinabounder’s email (again note my name).

    So you have lied to your readers about any comunication between you and the bounder……shame.

    There is no need to protest.

    Just fess up.

    You are just another form of cheating.

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      The only thing I note is that you are desperate to get that information about Chinabounder. It’s not that hard. You just have to know how.
      Although, I am not surprised that you don’t – given the fact that you couldn’t find Chinabounder’s original posts from which I took the quotes (do you fess up I was correct, by the way?)
      I very clearly explained that Chinabounder’s answers to my questions were not interesting and out of topic – he was more interested to promote his last book (co-authored with Karl Lacroix).
      If, as you accused me in previous comment, I would be driven by the wish to create controversy – then I would fake the correspondence and publish it here.
      But I am not liar: I know it, my constant readers know it. And I don’t see it worthy to prove it to you, Karl.

      Case closed.

      Edit: I hope, however, that when you get confirmation from bounder, you will come back here and post your apologies for calling me a liar.

  • Hoho

    I just feel sorry for that pathetic loser who created this ‘Chinabounder’ blog. He goes around bragging how he takes advantage of his English teaching job and draging those innocent students to his bed. I bet he would be thrown in jail with few sex offender charges, not to mention firing from his job if he does the same stuff in his homeland. Oh well,he was lucky that he is in China,hide his turtle head while everybody is out to hunt him.

    The only thing we need to do is just kick him out of China. Since he always preach how great he is,let him go find an English teaching job in his homeland(or taking government welfare? you figure).

    Loser like him is always a loser. He might have a great moment in China showing off his superior Western’s complexity and imperial mentality initially. Hey,world is changing fast. Toward the end,he is still the same sick mind dork in both his homeland and in China.

  • Hoho

    Since he is already out of China, would you and your neighbors mind to have him become your daugher’s local school teacher,or your wife’s college professor? Just watch your neighbor’s reaction after knowing his interesting experience(if school official haven’t found out about his past).

    He has also published a book. That book might be interesting,certainly not interesting enough for me to waste my precious dollar(or Pound) to read it. My friend and collegue would laugh their face after knowing book’s author is the one who uses his teaching job to get laid with students.

  • anon

    @ hoho

    “He goes around bragging how he takes advantage of his English teaching job and draging those innocent students to his bed”

    what kind of “innocent” Chinese girl fucks a foreigner? You don’t understand women.

    ” I bet he would be thrown in jail with few sex offender charges, not to mention firing from his job if he does the same stuff in his homeland”.

    You have to break the law before you can be thrown in jail in the UK. Sex between consenting adults is not against Chinese law (unless the man is married, I believe) either.

    All the Westerners who read this comment should note the tone of hysteria. If a Hoho is a man, he is motivated by sexual jealousy. His subconscious knows that he (as an individual, not because he is Chinese) can’t compete with relatively more masculine Western men (the kind that travel 5000 miles to totally different cultures to experience life), whom he has been raised to believe are inferior to Chinese men. The cognitive dissonance flips him over the edge. How could innocent students (queue Japanese porn movie fantasies) sleep with lowly foreigners when I have perpetual blue balls?

    If Hoho is a woman, she goes nuts because it is a serious threat to women to have their innate slutiness exposed to men. Women of low and average value in an environment of relative lack of abundance require a male provider in order to successfully raise children. Men are hard wired to find chaste women attractive because low value men who loved sluts ended up raising other men’s children and didn’t pass on their genes.

    However, most women are not naturally chaste, just like men. It requires a huge degree of social shaming with massive financial/other consequences to get high sex drive women to be faithful to average chump husbands. This makes sense because even a fat, ugly Chinese 4 can get a drunk Western male 10 to throw a fuck into her on a Tuesday night if she rubs her tits in his face and is under 22. If she has her own money, why would she be interested in being faithful to an unattractive man if she can get really hot men? Only because of dire social consequences and anonymous urban living is drastically reducing these consequences.

    If men truly understood that women are serial monogamists who are willing to dump the faithful, hard working but low value father of her kids for an attractive man as long as she gets a financial and emotional commitment from that sexy man, then they wouldn’t be as interested in providing for said women intially. Sure, an average guy would dump his faithful wife for a supermodel but women understand that already. And if the man had a choice, he’d keep both women (although the non-model one might have to buy a vibrator unless she was into threeways).

    If you are a high sex drive woman (slut) and sneaky (young Chinese girl) anything that exposes how easily “innocent” students will jump into bed with the right guy is a threat.

    In my 12 years in China it is always the nerdiest beta males and biggest sluts who get the most upset about players having lots of sex in China.

  • Hoho

    @anon

    Dear friend,
    ” I bet he would be thrown in jail with few sex offender charges, not to mention firing from his job if he does the same stuff in his homeland”. Good job. You actually read my post. I wrote this on purpose to see if anyone object to this false statement. Yeah..he doean’t get sex offender charge for what he has done. However,given his sick state of mimd,I bet he will be publishing blog something ‘sex with Chinese teenager’,’sex with young Chinese girls’ or ‘Sex with Chinese highschool girls’ if he stay in China long enough.

    It’s so great that Chinabounder becomes your idol. Too bad that I am very jealous of him,I got to admit. I need to show more Alpha male character like you. Gaining few pounds to get impressive look of beer bully,glue on loose hair I clicp off the wig to show off my hairy chest, walking like a Zombie and talking like a mmm..George Bush..how is that?

    You should welcome your dear Chinabounder friend come to teach at your neighborhood in UK. Just watch if your neighbors also share your warm reception with open arm :cool: .

    Hey,have a good day in China my friend. Wish all of us get to see your photo and meet you in person someday.

    • anon

      @ Hoho

      “I need to show more Alpha male character like you.”

      One characteristic of the Alpha male is emotional self-control. Being emotionally non-reactive is a sign of good character in men and women but especially in men. Chinabounder’s womanising is outside your control. Don’t let if effect you.

      Chinese/East Asian culture is even more firm and clear on this point than Western culture. Controlling and mastering your emotions is the key to success in life, especially in business.

      Chinese women are entitled to have sex with whomever they like no matter how it makes you feel. Some of those girls will have their hearts broken and some will end up in happy and fulfilling relationships. Some will just have back-breaking orgasms purely for their own pleasure. It is not your responsibility. Your responsibility is to treat your own lovers well, the same as the rest of us.

  • Karl Lacroix

    “I very clearly explained that Chinabounder’s answers to my questions were not interesting and out of topic…”

    So I shall call you a liar once again.

    And yes I am indeed the co-author with the bounder…

    And yes I have complete access to the chinabounder mail account and know the truth behind your ‘conversations’.

    They for a fact never happened.

    Just print what he said and then you can redeem your self and trash me.

    Do it!

    • anon

      @ Karl

      Not a good idea to call someone a liar on their own blog. Even if justified, name-calling does not help your argument.

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      Redeem myself? :lol: Hahaha… that was indeed funny. Thank you for a good laugh.

      Anyway, if you have the access to Chinabounder’s account – then just go to his hotmail and check 2 letters from August 20th. Then proceed to his googlemail and follow the correspondence which continued from August 20th to August 29th.

      You know – there is one thing which proves that you know I am saying the truth, and the only reason that you call me a liar is that you try to provoke me.

      Even if I would publish it, you would claim that I faked it. So, why do you insist me to post it? Because you know that it’s true, and because for some reason you do not have access to his googlemail.

      And for that I can say only one thing: You don’t know Chinabounder’s googlemail? Need my help? Really? No! Go and help yourself!

      This is the last time that I answer you, “Karl”. You can continue spitting venom and calling me names. I don’t care and won’t even bother to block your IP.

  • Hoho

    @Anon

    Then you certainly need to do a little better job in anger management in order to better-qualify yourself in ‘alpha male character’.
    It seems to me that you got pretty upset with my remark to you bloved ‘Chinabounder’. I was only feeling sorry for that poor soul,and you somehow became very jumpy.

    Mm..I think elements like ‘good judgement and good common sense’ also need to part of ‘alpha male character’. You have clearly demonstrated that by your great passion to him(Chinabounder of course) and defend him so strongly.

    Another great day in China. May God help you to please more women :mrgreen:

    • anon

      @Hoho

      I am self-aware enough to realise that commenting on a blog called “LoveLovechina” probably disqualifies me from being an Alpha male.

      I do not defend Chinabounder. Promiscuous behaviour is toxic both for him and for society. But I am not going to get hysterical about it. Chinese women can sleep with whom they like. If the innocent students chose loser, balding, beer-bellied, sick-minded dorky imperialists with superiority complexes then that must mean that Chinese men are total shit. It is up to Chinese men to fix that.

      A few years ago I spent a weekend in Dublin right during the time they had a huge influx of Polish workers. On the inside of a toilet door in a pub an aggrieved local had scrawled “POLES OUT!”. Underneath, some one else had written “BUT LEAVE YOUR WOMEN!” (Polish girls are hot). Showing the right attitude the last guy wrote “AND TAKE OURS!”.

      Guys that are good with women can laugh about these things. Blueballers have no sense of perspective.

      My original post was a reaction to your attack on Westerners in China as opposed to Chinabounder. I am going to stop feeding the troll because we are hijacking the thread. But srsly, eat more red meat, get yourself into the gym and start lifting heavy weights. That is the best way to boost your testosterone which will calm your nerves. With all the snark and hyperbole in your posts, you are going to give yourself an ulcer.

  • Rob

    Crystal,
    You are correct. Those of us who read your blog daily know that you are an honest person. You owe no explanation to any of us and in particular this person who calls himself “Karl Lacroix”. He is an “Ass” and does not deserve your time or graciousness.

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      Thank you very much for support, Rob!

      As a blogger, I must argue less and be more thick-skinned (something I haven’t learned yet).

  • Hoho

    @Anon

    It’s CNY holiday. I just have to do something killing time so here I am. Yeah,we have wasted too much space here so this will be my last post ;-) .

    “But srsly, eat more red meat, get yourself into the gym and start lifting heavy weights. That is the best way to boost your testosterone which will calm your nerves. With all the snark and hyperbole in your posts, you are going to give yourself an ulcer.”
    There seems to be more works needed in order to have yourself better qualified in ‘alpha male character’ I think you have your own mindset stuck on ‘external passive value’ aspect of ‘alpha male character’ and not making progress on ‘inner strength’ aspect of it. That is non-reactive,good judgement,common sense and the most important one,intelligent. I am sure you want to find a decent job back home or getting a good job offer in China with top international firm later part of life after you have done with sex adventure,ops pardon me, English teaching adventure in China. I hope that you do aware that your English teaching experience back home worth next to nothing(unless you have the professional credential),and it’s not so fun to go back to government welfare. So it’s good time to work on your inner strength fulfillment.

    Keep in mind that Chinabounder =\= Other decent and normal Westerners. Men and women have the freedom to sleep with anyone they choose to,slut,losser,smart,dumb or whatever. I give him high mark on entertainment value of his blog ;-) . Yes,he has every right to write anyway he wants to be. It’s his personal blog after all.

    Nevertheless,people with good judgement and common sense should be able to realize that his ‘sex with students’ conduct is universally unacceptable. This is straight forward and simple. That’s why I highly recommanded sending him back to teaching in UK and have the local people to deal with it. Or better idea,send him somewhere in middle East so he can write ‘Sex with Muslim girls’. Maybe one day we will see pic of him hanging on the tree with one part of essential organ missing from his body ;-) . Haha..just joking.

    Anyway,I was never anywhere near being hysterical. We are all in new year mode,relaxing and happy,why getting hysterical?

    Happy new year my friend,wish you all the success to become a 100% alpha male :razz:

  • Karl Lacroix

    And if you still do not believe I have access to chinabounder please email chinabounder@gmail.com and I’ll respond to every mail I get.

    But if you receive an email from the bounder you MUST request Crystal to tell the truth.

    Fair enough?

  • Karl Lacroix

    We have included a chapter cslled SINO-SPITE in our book
    FAULT LINES ON THE FACE OF CHINA:50 REASONS WHY CHINA MAY NEVER BE GREAT.

    Realted to the country in the book rather than just the people,
    Sino-Spite can be redirected to just one person.

    Crystal displays one of the great talents of the Chinese people…
    that of refusing to accept when they have been caught in a lie.

    This talent is magnified right up to the heads of government nationally,
    but it starts deep in the soul of most Chinese people.

    If you catch them in a lie then they will redirect the claim of lying
    to the fact that you have called them a liar, conveniently forgettig the original lie.

    Then you are faced with trying to prove they are a complete liar
    instead of trying to prove what it was they lied about.

    It is a time worn and very effective way of dealing with getting caught.

    I am sure there are lots of guys out there who have suspected their
    girls have lied to them and then experienced a fire storm of invectives from their women,
    Sino-Spite personified, asking you poor chaps to prove that they are liars.

    And have you ever, EVER been successful?

    Any guy who says he has not tried has just not found the lie thst his girl is telling him.

    Because all Chinese girls lie…I mean don’t you guys lie back?
    So what would you expect?

    Exclusivity? Ha Ha Ha

  • Rob

    Karl,
    If Crystal is such a bad person, than why are you so obsessed with her? Your attempts at proving her to be liar do nothing but make you look like a fool. Do yourself and everyone who reads Crystal’s blog a favor by going away and not coming back. I won’t pretend to speak for everyone but I am sure the majority of us are bored with your antics and would much rather read comments from people who have something positive and constructive to say.

  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    We will get the answer soon, Rob. :razz:

    Today I made “reply” to the first part of correspondence with Chinabounder, and even if it was deleted on bounder’s end – it anyway will show up in his mailbox with all previous mails included.

    And now, if – besides excelling in “analysis” of Chinese people’s character – Karl has a little bit of dignity or ability for introspection, he will come back here soon and apologize.

    Edit:
    I think, however, that ability to recognize mistakes is not the virtue Karl holds.

    You see, in one of his first comments (just go up this thread and you will see it), he made two accusations:
    1) That I falsified ChinaBounder’s posts
    2) That I lied about correspondence

    In regards of the first accusation he even made “analysis” of quoted excerpts and basing on his “analytical” skills and intimate knowledge of Chinabounder’s writing style concluded the following:

    Perhaps you cannot reply because you have taken material out of context and dressed it up so thart it appears to suit your narratve [from Crystal: sorry for leaving these grammar mistakes in place – it just makes his next sentence more funny]?

    It is the multitude of mistakes in the grammar in the samples of Chinabounder writings that you initially provided that provides the clue. He is far from perfect but never that bad.

    Then – after I showed links to the posts from which the excerpts were taken (without changing a word), Karl concentrated his efforts on the second accusation – forgetting, however, to admit his mistake regarding the first one.

    Now he composes another masterpiece of “analysis” – this time about the whole Chinese people, using me as a showcase example.
    Well… as I said, the proof was sent today to Chinabounder’s googlemail. Let’s see what Karl will come up with now.

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      Next day after sending the first part of correspondence back to Chinabounder’s and Karl’s mail I got the following reply:

      wow
      so cool.
      let me check with the bounder directly.

      ha ha

      karl

      Three days passed. Unfortunately, bounder’s co-author who writes books, analyzes the drawbacks of Chinese national character and bravely calls other people liars in public is a little bit shy to say – “Sorry, I was wrong”.

  • http://michaelturton.blogspot.com Michael Turton

    A great post and great set of comments. Crystal, I think you should put a link in the post to your other posts on this topic.

    Just a few rambling comments….

    I think ChinaBounder put his finger, or perhaps some other appendage, right on a double fault line of cultural taboos (good on him): the idea that Chinese femmes are in some vague way more chaste than other femmes (versus the reality that they like a good roll in the hay as much as anyone). I think that gap between cultural rhetoric and cultural reality has been well explored here.

    More interesting to me is the way ChinaBounder puts his appendage right on that tension between how western men perceive themselves to treat females and how they actually treat them: he treats them like real people who like to fuck, whereas there’s some vague notion among western males that we really ought to aspire to something “higher” in our treatment of femmes, especially those — and here is where it gets really fraught — especially those from impoverished non-white countries (pick up experts/books advise that females find this form of paternalism incredibly off-putting). This appears to be a cursed triple legacy of Christianity and Colonialism and middle class aspirations (which I once wrote about here: http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2010/05/western-male-fantasies-about-taiwanese.html . I doubt the femmes in CB’s classes are as dim as the posters fear they must be; no doubt the majority of them know he is just in it for the orgasm (since they gossip incessantly amongst themselves). So are they! Wanting to “protect” females from the ministrations of CB looks a lot like a form of paternalism to me (note that I am simply ignoring the ethical issues of student-teacher sex for the other discussion of cross-cultural sex).

    Since so many foreigners marry local Asians in the countries where they wind up, perhaps we should be protecting ChinaBounder from the possibility of marriage to one of those women who is living out her foreigner/foreign baby fantasy — I know several cases of that, resulting in unhappy marriages. The response of so many foreign males to Chinabounder: “No that’s not me!” and “there’s a certain element…” simply illuminates how threatened they are in their own sexuality. Shouldn’t it be “no that’s not me but it’s cool if he wants to behave that way.”

    Anyone who has spent time on the many online hookup systems, bars knows that there are a large number of females in China and Taiwan who like to sleep with foreigners, and that this subculture of sexual appetites is just one of many such subcultures. This reality was neatly encapsulated in the comment above to the effect that Chinese men who warn that the western men just want sex are in effect setting out adverts for the western males. The schools are well aware of this, which is why (at least in Taiwan, cant speak for China) their ads prominently feature foreign males; sex sells.

    Just a few comments, thanks for listening. ChinaBounder did a great job of making cultural fault lines stand out like terrain curves on a backlit map. I wrote about Prof Zhang at the time, the guy is a loon:
    http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2006/08/protecting-our-females.html

    Michael
    The View from Taiwan

  • http://michaelturton.blogspot.com Michael Turton

    Let me see if I can get the thought right. CB put his fingerlike appendage right on the cultural fault line that many western males unconsciously carry around: that, at any moment, sex between foreign males and Asian femmes threatens to veer into colonialist exploitation. In fact sex can only have two modes: relatively ok sex in committed relationships where the male must at all times represent that he is not like CB, and sluts like CB in which the sex is clearly colonialist. He’s crossed that line! I mean, it is not in a serially committed relationship, so it must be exploitative, right? There is no position where the girls are fucking CB because they want to or because they too have their sophisticated exploitative goals. This way that western men (don’t clearly) think about their own behavior is kind of a complement to the madonna/whore complex…..

    Hope this is a bit clearer.
    Michael

  • Silverton

    People are just pissed of with China Bounder because he told the truth. And that stupid professor, I’d like to find him and smack HIS face in! Chinese women are supressed, and need to be sexually liberated. Chinese men are pathetic little hypocrites with toothpicks for dicks. Chinese girls 19-23 SHOULD be having sex, it is a natural urge. All that crap about not having sex before marriage, rubbish spouted by ignorant and stupid mummy-boy Chinese men.

    The sex between ChinaBounder and the students was consensual, so why do any of you prudes care? If the students are over 18 then it is not anyones business. A lot of prudes on here.
    Chinese men always cheat on their wives, and spend their free time at night moving from one brothel to another ( the one’s with money ) People are free to have sex with whoever they want, and if Chinese women like to have sex with foreigners it is their right.

    Chinese men are selfish, and can’t please a woman, won’t do things like perform oral on them. Greedy and stupid fools!

  • Silverton

    Just one more thing I forgot to mention. The only thing ChinaBounder did that was wrong wrong was to sleep with some of HIS OWN students. If some were not his own students then so what? A teacher can’t have an affair with any student? IMO, a student-teacher relationship is a conflict of interest, therefore unprofessional, but I don’t see how a relationship between ANY adult teacher and student is immoral.

    They girls were hardly “innocent” either, remember it takes two to tango. Nobody forces a Chinese student to persue an FT, or go to his apartment. I have even heard some Chinese people tell me that teacher-student relationships are OK. What about Chinese teachers who sleep with students? Sure we won’t find a blog about that!

  • Ian

    I have been following this (and other) thread for some time, and have also read through most (if not all) of Chinabounder’s blog, sometimes repeatedly. I find what he says is very interesting, especially since it corelates with my own experiences in China (I am not talking about his screwing the girls but his main topic of course).

    I find it strange that so many people here are criticising him for screwing his students… Didn’t he state that he never screwed his students, only his EX students?

    Any sexual relationship between a Teacher and Student even if of adult age, is frowned upon here in Australia, and possibly most other civilized, western countries. Chinabounder did the right thing in that he waited until he was no longer in the position of trust and responsibility with the girls then he screwed them. Consenting adults, so whats wrong with that?

    This thread emphasises the sexual side of his blogs, where in fact the majority of his writings were about his views, interpretations and observations of China. So he added a bit of zest, and so what… it was all part of his experience there. If you don’t like to read it then top left in browser is arrow… its also called the “back button”.

    • Todd

      The problem with what he did is, as I see it, is that while he may have waited until they were no longer his students before he bed them, he made it pretty clear that he began his seduction and began preparing for potential sex with girls he liked while he was still very much their teacher. He still violated that trust, but waited until it was gray area.

  • haha no

    his english sucks, are we sure chinabounder is a westerner, he seems to be making the mistakes that many of my students make…

  • Silverton

    Ian raised a good point. If FT’s want to have sex with Chinese students they must choose someone who is NOT their student. A student from another department for example. Or wait until a girl is not your student, then have sex with her.

    Abide by these rules and there is no problem!

  • Silverton

    I am just going through some of the posts on here. And that ANON poster has written the biggest lot of drivel I have ever seen! “Chinese men are good fathers and providers?”

    WTF! Chinese men routinely dump their wives when they don’t give birth to a girl. They reject any woman who is under 30, not a virgin, divorced, or a single mother. Personally, I can’t stand most Chinese men and would like to smash their fucking faces in!

    They are living in the dark ages! I think there should be more people like ChinaBounder in Asia. Sexually repressed Chinese girls really need a good fucking!

    I am going to seduce a student ( not my own ) this week and give her a good bang, just to show her what she is missing out on!

  • Insight

    Well… I haven´t had the time or the will to read all the comments, just a few, at the beginning. More than anything I just want to point out the multiple discussions on the China forum of internationalsexguide. At least Chinabounder had some style. Man like to get laid everywhere, not only in China and there will always be somebody that has a sex-fueled life as somebody that will be more religious and devoted. It is part of human nature.

    Virtuous or not, that brings something extra to somebody´s life or to humanity or not… we should be a little bit more tolerant and understanding, as long as those behaviours are within the law, of different lifestyle choices.

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  • icarusty

    there is something fundamentally wrong with chinese, and also east asian women. I know of east asian, black, south asian, latino men who get off with white girls, black girls and latino girls – NONE of them were of the “hi, I’ve met you for five seconds, lets fuck” variety. Sure there is a thing called one night stands, but they are reciprocal. Nowhere on this planet is there a type of woman – other than asian women – who so willingly will blow and fuck a white guy, be happy to be used and abused – and still feel attached to him, continually being his fuck toy for nothing in return.

    Girls of other races who are exploited tend to scarper pretty quickly when their find out the men’s true motives. Or worse, they retaliate and do a bit of name and shaming on their own. Asian women never do this. Maybe that’s why white men go to them?

    easy to fuck, easy to abuse, and they still come back for more

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